Todd fails to "call out" Kyl's criticism that distorted Obama's comments
NBC's Chuck Todd uncritically aired Sen. Jon Kyl's (R-AZ) distortion of President Obama's September 9 address to Congress, in which Kyl falsely suggested that Obama had said, "If you disagree with us, we're going to call you out." But Obama did not promise to "call out" those who disagree with him; he said: "If you misrepresent what's in the [health care reform] plan, we will call you out [emphasis added]."
Todd lets Kyl claim Obama threatened to "call out" opponents of health care reform
From the September 10 edition of NBC's Nightly News with Brian Williams:
TODD: And yet outside of Maine Republican Senator Olympia Snowe, the White House can't name another congressional Republican the president has spoken with recently. And most Republicans today didn't view the president's words last night as any indication he wanted to work with them.
KYL [video clip]: This isn't the way that you get people to cooperate with you. You don't say that, "If you disagree with us, we're going to call you out."
TODD: And then, Brian, there's the issue of money.
Obama did not promise to "call out" those who "disagree with us," only those who "misrepresent" plan
Obama: "If you misrepresent what's in the plan, we will call you out." During his September 9 address before a joint session of Congress, Obama stated, "I won't stand by while the special interests use the same old tactics to keep things exactly the way they are. If you misrepresent what's in this plan, we will call you out. And I will not -- I will not accept the status quo as a solution. Not this time. Not now." [9/9/09]
are misrepresenting the plan when they are only disagreeing with
him. He claims people who disagree with him are misrepresenting
him. The two things are the same thing to Obama!
What the hell are you talking about?
If somebody like Sen. Wilson lies about what's in the bill -- a flat-out, factually verifiable false statement -- that's quite different from simply disagreeing with the President. It's lying.
One day perhaps you will understand the difference.
What Obama was speaking about, in that particular section, were the people forwarding (and still forwarding) ridiculous claims like euthanasia, death panels, illegal immigrants being covered, and so on and so forth. What he was calling out, were not people disagreeing with him, but people misrepresenting what is in the proposed bill in the House, along with a bunch of other fallacies.
Inaccurate commentary, and logical fallacies need to be called out, and that is what is happening.
I agree...and here's a look the president's speech by FactCheck.org...finding that he was less than forthright in several of his contentions about healthcare reform.
Sarah Palin's "death squad" claim that got so much traction was either an ignorant misinterpretation of something that's not in HR 3200... or a deliberate act of distortion.
Just one day after HB 3200 was released, IBD took off either with an ignorant misinterpretation of what P.16 meant... or a deliberate act of distortion.
Reasonable people can disagree on whether a government regulated exchange of private insurance companies to choose from... along with a public option... represents a "government takeover" of the industry. I happen to believe not, but understand the arguments of those who do. Fine. That's an honest argument.
But those examples outlined above... including your "people who disagree with him are misrepresenting him"... are false and dishonest arguments based on absolutely nothing but hot air and venom.
You just don't like your bluff... or ignorance... called out.
Then their defenders like willy here are such ideologues who shape their entire thought process around party first and then make the facts fit, that he actually reverses this nonsense around in his brain to believe that it is Obama's fault that the Republicans have no ideas of their own. It is amazing from a stricly sociological perspective to watch how the minds of these people work.
They assert that we try to censor those whose opinions are different than ours. But that's their tactic, not ours. That's their projection (see Bush's campaign trips that had screened audiences as a prime example) about censorship. They call us out when we aren't lying, but simply disagreeing with them, and the reverse isn't true.
Death panels.
Killing grandma.
Illegal immigrants being covered (YOU LIE)
Euthanasia
And so on and so forth.
And, what do you expect a health care bill to look like really? Health care, as we all know, is a complex issue. What are you going to do? Boil it down into 100 pages? 200 pages? It's large because it's complex (not to mention double spaced with an average of about 100 words per page).
Perhaps Obama was just irritated at all the nonsense that many have tossed his way, understandably, and drew a line in the sand. But things aren't that cut and dried all the time where legislation is concerned.
True enough I suppose. Feel free to lay some of these "honest" interpretations on us whenever you guys are ready. All we've heard so far from opponents, and what Obama was specifically addressing in his speech, are dishonest and/or factually incorrect interpretations.
But things aren't that cut and dried all the time where legislation is concerned.
True to a point. But again, 95% of what I've heard from the Right on this issue is based on either simple misinterpretations of the language (followed by steadfast refusal to be corrected), up to and including deliberate falsehoods about what the bill does and doesn't do.
Basically, the bill as described by Republicans bears absolutely no resemblance to the actual bill. Often, they can't even get the simple stuff right. It's right there in black and white, folks. It's not hard to see, for example, that the bill specifically prohibits illegal immigrants from getting subsidized coverage. I can scarcely believe we're even reading the same words sometimes.
Regardless of your political affiliations, no one with a brain believes representatives in Congress are looking for a way to kill off old people with the complicity of our healthcare professionals. No one with a brain actually believes that Obama was speaking to school children in order to indoctrinate them into believing in his healthcare plan. No one with a brain actually believes that any of these bills are being shaped in a way to ensure that illegal aliens are the ones who will benefit from this. No one with a brain believes that anything being considered is socialism where the government control the means of production. No one is suggesting the government take over all the profits from doctor and hospitals and nurses, etc. Anyone with any level of critical thinking and unbiased thought KNOWS this to be true.
And yet, due to our pathetic media and the extreme base to which the Republican party is willing to play to, these are the national debates we are having. The Republican party (with the compliciy of the media) is no longer just hurting Democrats or even themselves with this nonsense. They are knowingly and willingly hurting the country. They are doing great damage to our national discourse and are hampering any attempts at progress in the name of party over country. There will be a debt to pay in the future for all of this. Unfortunately, we may all end up suffering, as a country, because of it. And that, to me, is simply unforgiveable as a patriot.
Exactly. I've had it up to here with this ridiculous "it's 1000 pages!" meme that's been going around. People who spout that are clearly doing it to assert that the bill is this bloated, unwieldy thing. Condensed to a normal, readable format with all the extra spacing removed, the bill drops to less than 400 pages. Essentially, 60% of this "shocking" 1000 pages is air.
And, as you say, it's a comprehensive health care reform bill. That's a lot of ground to cover. In fact, I would be skeptical if it wasn't 400 pages!
Yet morons like you continue to spew about what's is and is not in the plan.....
However, the fact is that much of what is in the single bill that is present... HB 3200... is distorted, twisted, and represented by a lot of snakes.
Yesterday, before noon I believe, I had two incidents where I pointed out factual errors by conservatives, and both responded by saying I was intolerant of opposing viewpoints.
There are some objective truths in this world, and as long as the media (and regular people) continue to give equal weight to unfounded, or flat-out wrong, opinions, and allow people to defend their lies by citing the First Amendment, we'll continue towards the point where the truth doesn't really have much value at all..
Of course, many on the right will say you're trying to "silence them" and intolerant of their viewpoints.
I'm intolerant of their viewpoints because they're factually WRONG.
But it is more complicated than that.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/14/cbo-house-bill-would-cove_n_232032.html
In July the CBO said that that the cost of the House bill as it stood then would cost about a trillion over ten years. It also said that they expected around 9 to 10 million Americans to enroll. Here's the kicker that you are missing. It was estimated that 97% of Americans would have health insurance. The point of the public option is NOT to get the uninsured on the public option. The point is to get the insurance companies to sell BETTER POLICIES AT BETTER PRICES and get the market down to where even private insurance is inexpensive and still make a profit.
I just hope that Obama doesn't fold and do a trigger or co-ops. The way I see it the trigger should have been long before private insurance overcharged and attained profit margins seen only in casinos (20%). Today they get about 30%.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/sep2009/obam-s10.shtml
unlike other news site that are saying how great Obama plan without carefully listening this article goes into what the other news site are not saying, and one last note, Obama is not a progressive, Obama is a pro business democrat that has big business interests at heart, here is a quote to illustrate my point from Obama himself during the speech "Insurance executives don't do this because they're bad people, they do it because its profitable" referring to insurance practices of cherry picking the healthiest and dropping the sickest, if you ask me that is very evil, and yes insurance executives are bad people because profits always comes first, this will never change
I take him for what he is. Unfortunately, he gained stature at NBC/MSNBC so he can join his pal Jon Stossel.
Face it folks.
We now live in a facist society where what few corperations left have bought most ALL politicians to back their plans for putting the country they claim to love in the poor house.
They will kill Pres. Obama before this is over. They have (the Repugnacants) have lost control of their base, the worst of the worst, and unless they get them under control, the country is doomed to failure.
Everyone wants jobs. There are no jobs to be had except sub-minimum wage day labor and service jobs. Who will need these services when no one has money to buy anything except the top 2% of multi-millionairs? No one.
Icesailor,