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GMA host falsely reports that Ricci plaintiffs were "passed over for promotion in favor of less-qualified black candidates"

June 29, 2009 11:00 am ET

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SUMMARY: ABC's Bob Woodruff falsely reported that Ricci v. DeStefano was about firefighters "passed over for promotion in favor of less qualified black candidates." In fact, no one was promoted over any other; the test results were thrown out because of a racial disparity in the results.

205 Comments

On the June 29 edition of ABC's Good Morning America, ABC News anchor Bob Woodruff falsely reported that Ricci v. DeStefano was about firefighters "passed over for promotion in favor of less qualified black candidates." In fact, no one was promoted. The city threw out a promotion test because of a racial disparity in the results; no African-Americans scored high enough to qualify for immediate promotion.

The district court stated in its opinion in Ricci, which was affirmed by a U.S. 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals panel that included Supreme Court nominee Judge Sonia Sotomayor: "In March 2004 the New Haven Civil Service Board ('CSB') refused to certify the results of two promotional exams for the positions of Lieutenant and Captain in the New Haven Fire Department." The district court opinion later listed among the "largely undisputed" facts of the case that "[t]he board split two to two on the question of certifying each exam as a result of which the promotional lists were not certified" [footnote and citation omitted].

The city took the position that the test at issue in the case had a discriminatory effect. In the decision that Sotomayor joined denying en banc rehearing of the appeal of the district court's decision, Judge Barrington Parker -- a George W. Bush appointee -- wrote that "the City acted out of a concern that certifying the exam results would have an adverse impact on minority candidates." Parker also wrote that the city believed that "less discriminatory alternatives to this particular test existed."

From the district court's decision:

The board split two to two on the question of certifying each exam, see id. at 70-73, as a result of which the promotional lists were not certified.

Plaintiffs allege that the non-certification vote was due to political pressure, particularly by defendant Rev. Boise Kimber, a vocal African-American minister who, it is acknowledged by all parties, is a political supporter and vote-getter for Mayor DeStefano. Plaintiffs' theory is that the defendants urged the CSB not to certify the results in the interest of pleasing minority voters and other constituents in New Haven whose priority was increasing racial diversity in the ranks of the Fire Department. Plaintiffs further argue that this pattern of political manipulation is in keeping with prior actions by the City of New Haven disregarding the Charter-mandated Rule of Three in promotional decisions in the City's police and fire departments. In support of this argument, plaintiffs proffer evidence regarding prior litigation in the Connecticut Superior and Appellate Court, the substance and outcome of which is largely admitted by defendants, and which resulted in sharp rebukes against the City for violating the civil service rules. See Pl. L.R. 56(a)1 Stmt. ¶¶ 64-90; Def. Am. L.R. 56(a)2 Stmt. ¶¶

64-90. Plaintiffs argue that the apparent racial disparity in the results of the Lieutenant and Captain exams was due to the fact that hiring into, and promotion within, the Fire Department historically has been based on political patronage and promotion of racial diversity rather than merit; and they argue that the higher-scoring firefighters simply studied harder. In addition, they argue that the evident disparity was not appreciably worse on the 2003 examinations than other past promotional examinations.

Defendants argue that "the decision not to certify [the test] results was mandated by anti-discrimination federal, state and local laws." Def. Mem. in Support of Mot. for Summary Judgment [Doc. # 52] at 4. Alternatively, they argue that they had a good faith belief that Title VII mandated non-certification of the examinations, and they cannot be liable under Title VII for attempting to comply with that very statute. Defendants additionally argue that plaintiffs lack standing to bring their Equal Protection claim, or, if they do have standing, the claim lacks merit because all firefighters were treated the same, regardless of race, as no one was promoted as a result of the contested exams.

Plaintiffs counter that a "good faith belief" that certifying the test results would violate Title VII does not constitute a defense, as a matter of law, to an allegation of Title VII or Equal Protection violations against the plaintiffs.

[footnotes omitted]

From the June 29 edition of ABC's Good Morning America:

WOODRUFF: The Supreme Court hands down its decision this morning on a controversial case that could affect Sonia Sotomayor's confirmation to the high court. The reverse discrimination case revolves around 20 firefighters from Connecticut who claim they were passed over for promotion in favor of less qualified black candidates. They sued the city, lost, then appealed to Judge Sotomayor's court. She and her fellow appellate judges again ruled against the firefighters, saying the city was within its rights.

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    • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 11:41 am ET)
      2 15
      That is exactly what happened. The white FFs were denied promotion, because minorities did not do well on what was a fair test. They were passed over.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by ReasonAndResolve (June 29, 2009 11:48 am ET)
        12  
        BY your reasoning (and parsing of the language) it would be just as accurate to say that black candidates were "passed over", since no-one was promoted. The end result was the same for every candidate.

        Also notable is the fact that two white, male Appeals court judges agreed with Judge Sotomayor - as well as four Supreme Court Justices.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 11:51 am ET)
          1 12
          No...you can only be passed over if you pass the test, and then get denied due to your race, as happened here.

          Dont care who supported the discrimination. Most here think it is fine, and they are simply wrong. Reverse discrimination is just as wrong, and the SC said so today.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by NiceguyEddie (June 29, 2009 12:01 pm ET)
            9  
            No one was denied due to race. That's absurd. The plaintiff's were evcen claiming that. WHat's more the court's own reasoning here is that the BLACK FF'ers would have had litle standing to sue had the city kep the test results. Well: If the BLACKS who would not have been promoted couldn't proove descrimination, how do you think the whites could? The court did not rule that the whites were discriminated agianst. The ruled that the city did not have justification to throw out the results, based on fear of litigation for the Black FF'ers. That's it.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 12:06 pm ET)
              1 10
              Thats absurd. The white FF Were denied due to race. The SC said that was wrong. Very simple.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by NiceguyEddie (June 29, 2009 12:45 pm ET)
                8  
                See below. You can't just twist these thigns ot support your world view. They did not say that the FF'ers were denied due to race. Find that in the decsion. It ain't there. They faulted the city's reasoning. They did NOT say they discriminated. READ IT.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 7:54 pm ET)
                    5
                  You Eddie are of course are wrong. From todays SC case

                  "the City rejected the test results because “too many whites and not enough minorities would be promoted were the lists to be certified."
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by loonz (June 29, 2009 8:14 pm ET)
                    4  
                    They looked at the tests results because of the disparity in test scores. They found that upon examination the white candidates had better access to material and that there were better ways to determine the qualifications for the positions other than the 60% percent written and 40% oral makeup of the exam. Ginsberg noted that when Bridgeport initially had their test makeup at 75% written and 25% oral it had an adverse affect on minorities. They reverse the percentages for the next test and more minorities passed the tests. Now the fire department accurately reflects the community. Also, New Haven brought in someone who had been developing exams for 25 years for the Fire Department and he acknowledged that a written exam is not the way to find out who is the best candidate. He also said some of the questions did not match up with department procedures.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 8:58 pm ET)
                        5
                      No...you are wrong. Ginsberg said those things, not the SC decision that ruled for the FFS. You are being dishonest, and you know it.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by loonz (June 29, 2009 9:09 pm ET)
                        4  
                        The five conservatives on the court don't know their ass from their elbow. The four "liberals" got it right.
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by NiceguyEddie (June 30, 2009 8:06 am ET)
                        3  
                        Uh... last time I checked Ginsberg was on the SC.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by kalentros (June 30, 2009 4:07 pm ET)
                          2  
                          Shhhhh...facts. Don't confuse him. You know that he can't let facts get in the way of a good incoherent talking point.
                          Report Abuse
                  • Author by NiceguyEddie (June 30, 2009 8:14 am ET)
                    4  
                    *sigh* We're nover going to see eye to eye on this. One of the other posters (my apologies to whomever it was - I can't remember, but it was brilliant) said it best:

                    The problem is that when conservatives say "reverse racsim" it's a noun and when liberals say it it's a verb.

                    If you reverse the races - (all blacks promoted, all whites failed/passsed ove) my position would NOT change one iota: I'd still be fine with the City throwing out the results and yet would still be fine with both the appellant court's and the SC's respective rulings and reasoning. But I imagine YOUR position would change considerably - I think you'd be applauding the city, as opposed to crticizing it, and cursing the SCOTUS instead of celebrating.

                    Because for YOU and YOUR LOT it's all about RACE. For liberlas (on this an on every other issue) it's about REASON.
                    Report Abuse
              • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 2:52 pm ET)
                5  
                No. They werent. Its that simple.
                Report Abuse
            • Author by dexteritas0071418 (June 29, 2009 12:28 pm ET)
              3 4
              Nice is right: the SCOTUS didn't say anything about discrimination, they just said you couldn't throw out a test that was basically THE factor in being eligible for promotion, based on a "fear" of litigation.

              I like Roberts' court and the way the formulate their opinions. It gets most "equality and fairness" people worked up, but the rulings are very narrow and leave a lot of room for laws to be changed the proper way (for ex., states could pass laws requiring DNA testing and re-testing, even though the SCOTUS said there wasn't a constitutional right to DNA testing upon request).
              Report Abuse
          • Author by ReasonAndResolve (June 29, 2009 12:01 pm ET)
            9  
            Then let's put it this way: No-one was promoted, so no-one was passed over.

            The fact that minority candidates did not pass the exam, while not proof of a racial bias to the exam, is de facto evidence that the exam may have had a racial bias.

            Racial bias in standardized testing has been well established, so it is not beyond the norm to accept defacto evidence.

            But, again, since no promotions were given, no-one was "passed over".
            Report Abuse
            • Author by dexteritas0071418 (June 29, 2009 12:29 pm ET)
              2 8
              Blah blah blah. "We want equality of result!!" It'll never happen, because people are human and different.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by seeryer (June 29, 2009 1:03 pm ET)
                6  
                No liberal says that. Equality of opportunity, not result.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by ReasonAndResolve (June 29, 2009 1:09 pm ET)
                  7  
                  Well said.

                  Although, inequality of result can sometimes be seen as de facto evidence of inequality of opportunity. (This is where the rednecks and closet racists end up in coniption fits - it is a fine line of distinction that is not often visible through a beer haze).
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by dexteritas0071418 (June 29, 2009 1:22 pm ET)
                      7
                    I agree that inequality of result can be a symptom of inequality of opportunity (and by opportunity I'd like to get to the very upbringing of a child and their access to education, etc).

                    However, I am COMPLETELY against "shortening the finish line for fat kids" even if it wasn't their fault that all they had to eat was twinkies. The cure it to help the next generation eat well, and preserve our society's success by giving the best the responsibility and the reward that comes with success.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by NiceguyEddie (June 29, 2009 2:13 pm ET)
                      5  
                      You are correct. And in this case the SCOTUS said that the placement of the finish line was reasonable. That need not always be the case, and if you every have a 100% to 0% result, it's worth looking into. I'm satisfied with the SC decision,I just don't like how the con's are distorting the lib position, and abusing the SC decision to say something it doesn't.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by dexteritas0071418 (June 29, 2009 3:05 pm ET)
                          7
                        Agreed. Except when we're p'd off, and although we tend toward different aisles of political philosophy, we both do our best to be fair and call it like it is, and I appreciate your level-headedness.
                        Report Abuse
                    • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 3:41 pm ET)
                      6  
                      I dont want to see the finish line shortened for anyone. I WOULD like to see us stop letting some start from ten feet from the finish line and take the weights off of the ankles of others.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by dexteritas0071418 (June 29, 2009 4:38 pm ET)
                          6
                        In theory I completely support your position, but in reality most regulations are putting in place what I disfavor (shortening the line), instead of helping to occur what you favor.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 8:51 pm ET)
                          3  
                          No question the whole thing is tough. You want to do one thing, you dont want the solution to cause more problems. None of this is as simple as it seems.
                          Report Abuse
              • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 29, 2009 2:23 pm ET)
                5  
                "Blah blah blah." = "I don't know how to refute you."
                Report Abuse
          • Author by ReasonAndResolve (June 29, 2009 12:05 pm ET)
            11  
            Incidentally, there is no such thing as "reverse discrimination". This is a mis-nomer. Discrimination is discrimination, regardless of the race, creed, or color of the victim.

            These would be more accurately described as "compensatory hiring practices", and they may or may not constitute discrimination in some instances.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by bobklahn (June 29, 2009 12:17 pm ET)
              5  
              Dear Reason and Resolve.
              You are guilty of being reasonable and logical. That's against the law isn't it?

              Using the term "reverse discrimination" implies that white people are somehow special.

              Above all, no one is considering whether or not the test actually was biased, even looking at the question seems to be objectionable to many.

              Report Abuse
          • Author by NiceguyEddie (June 30, 2009 10:59 am ET)
            4  
            you can only be passed over if you pass the test, and then get denied due to your race

            This is an absurd statement, typical of flawed conservtave thinking. Are you sure this is THE ONLY way you can "passed over"? Seems to me I can think of many other ways that you can be "passed over" and while each would consistent with one another, none would be consistant with what you describe.

            You're letting your blind indeology rob words of their meaning.
            Report Abuse
        • Author by CamperDan (June 29, 2009 2:12 pm ET)
          1 5
          Since the black canidates didn't pass the test, they cannot be passed over. Pretty simple really. Remedial reading class needed RAR?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by shaggles (June 30, 2009 11:58 am ET)
            3  
            I think 8 of the african american candidates passed the test. They just didn't score high enough to be automatically promoted.
            Report Abuse
        • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 6:39 pm ET)
            5
          Here is part of what the SC said today.

          The City rejected the test results solely because the higher scoring candidates were white. The question is not whether that conduct was discriminatory but whether the City had a lawful justification for its race-based action.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by vhw28672478 (June 29, 2009 6:52 pm ET)
            4  
            you are wrong
            Report Abuse
            • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 7:55 pm ET)
                5
              LOL...that is a quote from the case moron, it is not open to dispute if it is there or not. Read the Case.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by loonz (June 29, 2009 8:16 pm ET)
                4  
                That's what the conservatives said which is not true.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 8:59 pm ET)
                    4
                  Thats what the final Binding SC decision said. READ THE CASE
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by loonz (June 29, 2009 9:07 pm ET)
                    4  
                    The conservatives on the court said that and they are woefully wrong. Ginsburg got it right.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by loonz (June 29, 2009 9:14 pm ET)
                    4  
                    I don't think you read the decision. The five conservatives said one thing and the liberal justices said disagreed. The conservative justices don't know how to apply the law.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 9:34 pm ET)
                        5
                      I have read the case, and the dissent. thats why I can call you out for being dishonest in your postings
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by loonz (June 29, 2009 10:01 pm ET)
                        4  
                        No. The liberals on the Court debunked every argument in the majority's asinine decision. You didn't find Ginsburg's arguments more compelling than Kennedy's?
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 11:45 pm ET)
                            6
                          Not at all Ginsburg only wants to look at discrimination that took place 40 years ago. She did not even try to establish that the Fire Department was discriminating now. She never made that claim. She simply wants AA to go on forever, and would let the white victims in this case face discrimination to make up for an "historic" wrong, and not the wrong presented to the court today.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 30, 2009 12:43 am ET)
                            3  
                            The Fire Department didn't have an opportunity to discriminate because it preemptively pulled the test.
                            Report Abuse
                          • Author by loonz (June 30, 2009 5:59 am ET)
                            2  
                            I don't think you read her opinion.
                            Report Abuse
          • Author by NiceguyEddie (June 30, 2009 8:18 am ET)
            2  
            So what?

            This quote clearly says, "The question is not whether that conduct was discriminatory"

            How more clear do you have to be? You're whole argument rests on this, and is destoyed by it.

            The very justices that ruled against the city make it very clear that this was NOT case of discimination!

            What is your major malfunction?!
            Report Abuse
            • Author by pongotwistleton (June 30, 2009 10:16 am ET)
              2 2
              The quote means that discriminatory treatment of the white officers was a given in this case, a violation of Title VII. The question presented is whether, and under what circumstances, disparate treatment based on race is justified to avoid disparate impact. The Court noted that Title VII seems to allow one form a race-based discrimination (disparate treatment), in order to prevent the other form (disparate impact). The majority held, correctly in my view, that Title VII permits disparate treatment only when there is a valid claim of disparate impact. (It's the "strong basis in evidence test"). As Scalia noted, whether that's constitutional is a battle to be fought on another day.

              Based on the record, the Court held (correctly in my view), that the City sorely failed to present a strong basis in evidence that it would be susceptible to liability on a claim of disparate impact. In painstaking detail the Court iterated the laborious process through which the test was developed and implemented. In developing material for test questions, they acquired data from all sorts of fire personnel, and oversampled minorities. They had a continuous give-and-take with the City throughout the entire process. There is no valid evidence that the test was based on anything other than entirely objective criteria, leaving only the stastical disparity as the city's justification for casting aside the results. The test developers were a reputable organization, who clearly took great pains to ensure the test was objective. The City's paltry rebuttal to Plaintiffs' evidence was the oblique testimony of the developer's direct competitor, who nonetheless conceded that the tests should have been certified.

              After reading the opinion it is clear that the City's objections to the test itself were frivolous, and so they pathetically relied solely on the racial disparity. They were cowed by the race-bating pastor and the misrepresentations of law provided by the mayor's office.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by NiceguyEddie (June 30, 2009 4:12 pm ET)
                2  
                I'm with you until the last two lines. Pathetically? Dude - it went to the supreme court and was decided 5-4! The city won in court, and on appeal. So don't undermine an otherwise credible post with such "pathetically" unecessary and inaccurate ajectives.

                Otherwise, I'm with you. But we (liberals) were never really arguing the case itself. The left's big problem with this is the BIG DEAL the right-wing press made out of it, and only because Sotomayor (along with 2 other judges) ruled on the appeal and somehow that was supposed to mean something profound. It doesn't. PERIOD. The city wanted to cover it's @$$ and the SCOTUS said, "You don't have to - we'll cover you."

                There's nothing wrong with the decision necessarily, and I didn't hear all the evidence or arguments (and neither has anyone here) so debating that aspect of it is basically frivoulous conjecture anyway. The points are:

                1) NO ONE was found to be RACIST.
                2) This IS NOT a rebuke of SOTOMAYOR.
                3) This DOES NOT show that liberals (or Sotomayor) are somehow out of the mainstream. (It's absurd to suggest ANY 5-4 decision could EVER demonstrate that!)
                4) The 5 SC Judges in the majority WERE being judicial activists in this case. They overturned the legal decision made by the city, and upheld by at least two other court decisions. They also chanegd the legal rationale, effective changing the law, in order to overrule the lower courts and give the city the protection it needs.

                Again - I'm fine with the decision, don't bother my @$$ none at all. But points 1-4 above still stand, rock solid and nothing in your, or any other con's posts has done d!ck even question, let alone debunk, them.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by pongotwistleton (June 30, 2009 5:22 pm ET)
                  1 1
                  "Judicial Activist" is a nonsense phrase, tossed around by each side when they disagree with a decision. The Court reconciled the conflicting provisions of a statute (Title VII), and ultimately gave effect to each one. That's the Court's job.

                  The record, as reflected in the majority and Alito's concurring opinion, indicates in my view that the City was way too willing to screw the firefighters who performed well on the test and deserved to have the results certified. The City's evidence that the test lacked objectivity, or otherwise failed to test firefighting skills etc . . . was exceedingly weak. Its most credible critic of the test stated that the results should have been certified. The other stated that all standardized tests result in disparate results, and she declined even to glance at the test. In any event, the mayor didn't give a hoot how the board ultimately decided, as he would've invalidated the results regardless . . ..

                  And the accounts from the hearings, on whether to certify the results, definitely indicate that many who wanted the tests invalidated injected race-politics into the fray, pure and simple. The pastor and his cohort (the one who called the white firefighers "Klansmen") are despicable pieces of garbage, in keeping with their other pal -- the corrupt mayor. Ironic how Ginsburg belabors that "context counts" in these situations, yet she pays lip service to this half of the contextual underpinnings.

                  It was clear that the test developer appropriately went out of its way to ensure that the test would be race-neutral. It worked with the city throughout, and the questions were evaluated by professional firefighters, including professional minority firefighters. I simply have not read anything that undermines the validity of the tests, and certainly nobody on these boards has identified any.

                  As far as your points 1-4, I don't see racism among the relevant players either (aside from the pastor and his friend). What I do see is pathetic timidity in the face of discrimination charges. My reading of the opinions reveal that the City wanted to (and did) scrap the results by reason of the statistical disparity alone, and that this was justified (if not mandated) by Title VII. Their easy willingness to simply screw over the worthy applicants for promotion is pathetic. The statistical disparity was the mainstay of the City's argument because its attack on the test itself was utterly frivolous.

                  Regarding points 2-4, I agree it's not a rebuke of Sotomayer. Without her putting pen to paper, nobody knows precisely how she would have analyzed the issues discussed in the majority and dissenting opinions of the Court. And I agree as well that the dissenting opinion by no means radical, I'm glad its view did not prevail
                  Report Abuse
      • Author by shaggles (June 29, 2009 12:19 pm ET)
        4  
        I think the disputed phrase is "in favor of..." That implies that black candidates were promoted which is not the case.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by seeryer (June 29, 2009 1:01 pm ET)
        4  
        They were passed over for promotion in favor of black candidates? Also, a minority Latino was part of the "white" firefighters who broguth the suit against the city. Your point of view is so skewed that you can't admit that Woodruff got it wrong.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 2:50 pm ET)
        6  
        No that isnt what happened at ALL. You really dont have a clue. Just a blind ideology
        Report Abuse
    • Author by dave (June 29, 2009 11:50 am ET)
      1 11
      "In fact, no one was promoted. The city threw out a promotion test because of a racial disparity in the results; no African-Americans scored high enough to qualify for immediate promotion."


      I suppose it is false, they didn't promote anyone. Racial disperity just meant that they really wanted to promote a black guy, but the white guys scored higher.....damn white guys. So much for the most qualified person for the job theory.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by open_mind (June 29, 2009 12:31 pm ET)
        4  
        It was also argued that the test was not a relevant measure of applicable knowledge or skill.

        Maybe someone can provide actual examples of the questions. I have no idea without seeing the questions if this is true or not, but for instance questions using math or general knowledge may be an indicator of intelligence by some measure, but not applicable to the qualities necessary to manage firefighters and/or do job tasks well.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 2:57 pm ET)
        6  
        Do you have any evidence this test in ANY way measured who was most qualified for the job? Why no you dont since the very basis of this controversy is when they were challenged on this VERY QUESTION the city didnt think they could show that either which is why they tossed the test. Please stop with the poor oppressed white people snivel. As a white man I find it embarassing
        Report Abuse
        • Author by dave (June 29, 2009 3:23 pm ET)
          1 10
          Actually I do. The white guys scored higher. The city didn't like the results, but the SC upheld them. And I don't care what color you are, union guy.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 29, 2009 3:30 pm ET)
            8  
            Solon's Question:
            Do you have any evidence this test in ANY way measured who was most qualified for the job?


            Dave's Response:
            Actually I do. The white guys scored higher.


            Let's review. Dave says that because the white applicants scored higher, it means the test "..measured who was most qualified for the job". Telling. This is precisely the type of racism that we are trying to combat.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by foghornleghorn (June 29, 2009 3:36 pm ET)
              7  
              Well played!! The cheerleaders of this decision on this thread have absolutely NO idea what it meant, no matter how hard some of you are trying to explain it.

              There's no listening. Just endless cheering that the white man prevailed against the evil forces of racism.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by dave (June 29, 2009 3:36 pm ET)
                11
              Let's review your nonsense review.


              The white guys scored higher than the black guys on a promotions test, and should have been promoted. Yup, you got me there. I'm racist.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Brabantio (June 29, 2009 3:43 pm ET)
                8  
                No, I caught it too. You used the fact that white people passed the test as proof that the test measured qualifications. In other words, because they were white, they are superior.

                That is racist by definition. If you didn't phrase that the way you meant to, explain it, but otherwise I don't see how else to interpret that comment.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by dave (June 29, 2009 3:49 pm ET)
                    11
                  I explained that they scored higher and should be promoted based on score. The rest you thought of on your own. Did they have a superior score, yes, should they be promoted because of it, yes, that's why they took it in the first place.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 29, 2009 3:53 pm ET)
                    5  
                    You've been nailed. I identified you long ago as a particular odious species of con. I can't say that I'm sorry to expose your particularly nasty racist tendencies using your own words in true MMFA fashion.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by Brabantio (June 29, 2009 3:55 pm ET)
                    8  
                    No, you were asked if you had any evidence that the test measured qualifications. That's not the same thing as saying someone scored higher and should be promoted.

                    Are you saying that when you said "actually I do" that you were imagining the question to be "Do you think that the people who scored higher should be promoted"? That's an awfully strange misinterpretation.

                    And aren't you the same person who referred to "towelhead land" on a thread not too long ago? I'm not saying that proves anything in and of itself, but it's sort of hard to give that much of a benefit of the doubt to someone who thinks in those sorts of terms.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 3:58 pm ET)
                    10  
                    Except the question was "Do you have any evidence this test in ANY way measured who was most qualified for the job"

                    Your answer was "Actually I do. The white guys scored higher"

                    This is flat out racist. No real way out of it.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by wesley (June 29, 2009 4:04 pm ET)
                      12
                    -- Did they have a superior score, yes, should they be promoted because of it, yes -- dave

                    Despite the attempts to assassinate your character by some liberals...your assessment is correct...and backed by the SC.

                    Now here's the biggest softball that I can toss your way that should put this racism silliness to rest...

                    If the test scores had been the reverse...with all blacks scoring higher...who should have gotten the promotions?
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Brabantio (June 29, 2009 4:08 pm ET)
                      10  
                      If the test scores had been the reverse...with all blacks scoring higher...who should have gotten the promotions?


                      Nobody. Statistical clumping like that is a red flag that there's a bias in the test, and the results should be thrown out.

                      Now, if you really want to put the racism "silliness" to rest, you can explain how saying that white people scoring better is evidence of testing for qualifications isn't a racist comment. If you want to defend Dave, make a real effort at it, instead of throwing out a moronic attempt at a gotcha question.
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 4:37 pm ET)
                      7  
                      Let me get a judges ruling on that. Despite Wesleys pretzel logic to MISS THE OBVIOUS FACTS HERE. There was no character assasination. The question was what evidence did he have the test was a measure of the ability to do the job. Dave says the white people passed. Purely racist. Wes pretends he cant smell the stench because that is the kind of guy he is.
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by dave (June 29, 2009 4:40 pm ET)
                        10
                      Obviously Wes, all the black guys, and the SC would back me as well.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by foghornleghorn (June 29, 2009 4:47 pm ET)
                        6  
                        You can't claim the SC backed you when you haven't any clue as to what was decided.
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by open_mind (June 29, 2009 5:21 pm ET)
                        7  
                        I think Dave's prejudice is a common one. I do not even think he is aware of it. The notion that whites doing better on the test validates the test in some way implies that whites are inherently superior to blacks.
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 8:54 pm ET)
                        5  
                        The SC would back your contention that the proof the test measured ability to do the job was the white guys passed? I doubt that. In fact the proposition is ludicrous on the face of it.
                        Report Abuse
              • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 3:46 pm ET)
                7  
                Yeah, he got you, yeah, you are racist. Neither of those is a suprise. Brab is right you MAY have meant it differently but the way it is written it is prima fascie racism
                Report Abuse
          • Author by wesley (June 29, 2009 3:42 pm ET)
              6
            Dave, you are absolutely correct...and the SC provided an in-depth analysis of the testing method and questions.

            Guess what? The city of New Haven could not produce evidence of the test being flawed racially.

            -- There is no genuine dispute that the examinations were job-related and consistent with business necessity. The city's assertions to the contrary are blatantly contradicted by the record...

            The city, moreover, turned a blind eye to evidence that supported the exams validity. -- Justice Kennedy

            The SC was clear...New Haven's decision not to certify the test results was based on race and they could provide no compelling evidence that the test was flawed.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 5:55 pm ET)
                6
              Wes

              What are you doing man? These guys dont want to hear the FACTS that the test was valid. What will Solon argue if he actually shuts up for once and reads!!!
              Report Abuse
              • Author by congero6189599 (June 29, 2009 6:18 pm ET)
                5  
                When you provide some facts then we will argue them! What I've seen by you and your friends so-far is a distortion of the 5-4 ruling!
                Report Abuse
              • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 8:56 pm ET)
                5  
                What would YOU do if you ever grew a brain and could actually think instead of regurgitating what Rush TELLS you to think?
                Report Abuse
            • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 9:00 pm ET)
              5  
              You are reframing the entire question. It wasnt a matter that the City had to PROVE it was discriminitory. The court looked at whether they had a right to toss aside a test they couldnt show was measuring the ability to do the job. The lower court followed the law. The City did what it thought was right according to the law at the time. The SC decided the law went too far or that the city saw it the wrong way. IF the SC says they have to be able to show the test is flawed that is different than the city thinking they cant show the test WASNT flawed in that they couldnt show it accurately measured the ability to do the job.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 3:44 pm ET)
            6  
            So the white guys scoring higher is evidence the test meausred ability to do the job? That is pretty much textbook racism there. You are lucky you arent in my union we take pretty serious tests and if you fail its not you dont get promoted you get fired. YOU would never have lasted past the first test MORON GUY. You embarass decent white people everywhere.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by dave (June 29, 2009 3:58 pm ET)
                6
              So all those black guys that didn't pass would get fired?
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Brabantio (June 29, 2009 4:03 pm ET)
                6  
                Why would you believe that black people wouldn't pass that test?
                Report Abuse
                • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 29, 2009 4:11 pm ET)
                  6  
                  Why would you believe that black people wouldn't pass that test?
                  Because he's a racist. I think we've established that irrefutably.

                  At least folks in the KKK and skinhead groups are willing to admit their hatred. It's closet racists like Dave that are currently doing to most damage to minorities as they've taken their prejudice underground while finding subtle ways to express it.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by dave (June 29, 2009 4:13 pm ET)
                    7
                  In Solon's "Thomas the Train" union, if you don't pass a test...you get fired. The black FF's failed the FF promotions test, they would be fired, according to him and his union. BTW, nice union there....I always thought unions protected their employees? Now I see why they are becoming useless.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Brabantio (June 29, 2009 4:16 pm ET)
                    6  
                    That didn't answer the question. Why do you believe that "all those black guys" wouldn't pass?
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 4:41 pm ET)
                    8  
                    No Dave. You have never thought in your LIFE. You dont have the requisite equipment. You dont have a brain. You have an ideology. You hate unions. You hate minorities and you basically hate. All your posts are knee jerk hatreds. Unions protect their employees. YES. My job is dangerous and those who cant do the job arent coddled. You dont see anything. You hate blinders are too tightly wrapped around your useless head. And yes. More than a few black people along with more than a few white people have lost their jobs because they cant pass the tests. Clearly you would NEVER make it in my job. The union isnt there to protect morons like you. It is a GOOD thing that small minded idiots like YOU, who have always been useless are becoming marginalized.
                    Report Abuse
              • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 9:02 pm ET)
                5  
                All they guys black white or purple that cant pass the test are fired.
                Report Abuse
          • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 5:51 pm ET)
              7
            Nice Dave....straight and to the point!!
            Report Abuse
            • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 29, 2009 8:38 pm ET)
              4  
              Nice Dave....straight and to the point!!
              We assumed you'd agree with Dave's racist sentiments. You did not disappoint.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 9:05 pm ET)
                  5
                You are one of the biggest racist I have seen post here. I do hope you will change however.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 29, 2009 9:33 pm ET)
                  5  
                  You are one of the biggest racist I have seen post here. I do hope you will change however.
                  The proof is in the pudding. You and Dave have shown your racism over and over. I don't care that you, a racist, tries to turn things around using the old con tactic of projection. I think in the school yard it started out something like, "...I'm rubber and you're glue." It didn't work in the schoolyard and it doesn't work here.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 9:38 pm ET)
                      5
                    You can spin it anyway you want. You are racist, and you do now want the law applied to white ffs who were the victims in this case. Call yourself anything you like, I know what you are.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by loonz (June 29, 2009 9:56 pm ET)
                      4  
                      You have it reversed. The minorities were the victims.
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by Brabantio (June 29, 2009 10:06 pm ET)
                      5  
                      So liberals are racist because they want a fair test, but Dave makes a clearly racist comment and that's fine?

                      You really should just shut up at this point. Defending comments like Dave's is not a smart path to take, and it's clear that you're either trolling, you're a racist, or you've just lost your way completely on this thread.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 11:48 pm ET)
                          5
                        The SC said the city did NOT establish that the test was unfair, and turned a blind eye to evidence that it was in fact fair. How do you defend your knee jerk comment that the test is not fair in that light?
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by solon (June 30, 2009 12:08 am ET)
                          4  
                          They also said it wasnt in dispute even though the minority decision DID in fact dispute this very claim. See THAT is the crux of the buscuit and it is disputable. All that can be said is that they found the city made the WRONG decision in THIS case. It doesnt invalidate the very concept of the civil rights law. Also what Dave said was CLEARLY racist. You make yourself look bad defending it and agreeing with it.
                          Report Abuse
                        • Author by Brabantio (June 30, 2009 12:09 am ET)
                          5  
                          I didn't say for a fact that it wasn't fair, I'm saying that's always been the concern. Acting as if it's about bringing down the white man or something is just preposterous.

                          If you want to talk about "knee-jerk" responses, maybe you should go back and look at your reply regarding Dave's racism. I notice you're not too eager to address that particular aspect of my post, for some mysterious reason.
                          Report Abuse
                    • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 30, 2009 12:45 am ET)
                      4  
                      Call yourself anything you like, I know what you are.
                      I don't care what you think. I do care what the many thoughtful liberals on this site think, and we have observed your racist behavior. You haven't even done a good job of hiding it.
                      Report Abuse
        • Author by dexteritas0071418 (June 29, 2009 4:48 pm ET)
            8
          Solon, isn't assuming the test didn't measure "most qualified" because no black candidates passed racist? (hint: a LATINO candidate qualified)
          Report Abuse
          • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 29, 2009 5:22 pm ET)
            3  
            Solon, isn't assuming the test didn't measure "most qualified"...
            I haven't seen that argued here. We'd have to see the questions of the test to determine that.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 5:57 pm ET)
                6
              The SC saw them, and did not have a problem with them!!
              Report Abuse
              • Author by open_mind (June 29, 2009 6:06 pm ET)
                4  
                Did the majority of the SC agree to that? Besides, haven't conservatives argued that it should be up to the elected city representatives to decide? If the City had a problem with it, shouldn't that be good enough? Is this another case of judicial activism by the majority?
                Report Abuse
                • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 6:12 pm ET)
                    5
                  The city is Not free to discriminate
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by congero6189599 (June 29, 2009 6:25 pm ET)
                    5  
                    Oh so you do see the need for the Feds to step in!
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by open_mind (June 29, 2009 6:38 pm ET)
                    5  
                    I agree, but that would make you a hypocrite.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by open_mind (June 29, 2009 7:08 pm ET)
                      6  
                      Actually, to put a finer point on it, any entity covered by the Constitution may discriminate - assuming there is a compelling reasoning behind it. This has always been the liberal position. For example, the government can discriminate against felons by revoking their voting privileges, restricting their access to firearms, where they are allowed to live and who they can associate with.

                      Conservatives usually argue that decisions should be made as locally as possible (especially when the judgement is split as in this case 5-4) and that the SCOTUS should avoid substituting their own judgement for that of the governing authority - that can be held accountable at the local level. Anything else has been called "judicial activism". For example - the states' rights debate and majoritarianism.
                      Report Abuse
          • Author by open_mind (June 29, 2009 5:30 pm ET)
            8  
            How is it racist to assume that the results be more proportional than they were?
            Report Abuse
          • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 9:05 pm ET)
            5  
            No I am not. I am only assuming the City didnt think they could SHOW the test measured most qualified to do the job because when they were challenged on that point they tossed the test. I also assume since the city didnt think THEY could show this that none of you conservatives can show it.
            Report Abuse
        • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 6:46 pm ET)
            5
          The SC does.

          The City rejected the test results solely because the higher scoring candidates were white. The question is not whether that conduct was discriminatory but whether the City had a lawful justification for its race-based action.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 29, 2009 8:05 pm ET)
            5  
            The question is not whether that conduct was discriminatory..
            Exactly.
            Report Abuse
    • Author by wesley (June 29, 2009 11:55 am ET)
      3 12
      Great decision by the SC...correcting the liberal social engineering of the city of New Haven.

      A fair test on the knowledge required for promotion to captain and Lt. was issued. Anyone...and I mean anyone...who scored high enough should be promoted.

      Every candidate was offered a fair opportunity to prove their merit. That is all that is required...equal opportunity...not equal results.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 11:57 am ET)
        2 12
        Exactly.

        You are 100% correct sir.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by congero6189599 (June 29, 2009 12:13 pm ET)
          9 1
          Here come come the right-wing nutcases that are arguing a point that wasn't even part of the lawsuit. You keep chasing those ghost, while your party and ideology shrink into a southern fringe movement. I'am laughing at you.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 2:58 pm ET)
          6  
          No he isnt
          Report Abuse
        • Author by open_mind (June 29, 2009 5:32 pm ET)
          5  
          For all that added to the debate, you might as well just have left it at your thumbs up.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by shaggles (June 29, 2009 12:11 pm ET)
        7  
        Have you actually seen the test? If not how do you know it was fair? I'm not saying it was or wasn't but if you haven't seen it how could you know?
        Report Abuse
        • Author by dave (June 29, 2009 12:21 pm ET)
          1 7
          How is a written promotional test not fair?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 29, 2009 2:26 pm ET)
            5  
            Maybe it had questions about Lawrence Welk on it.
            Report Abuse
        • Author by wesley (June 29, 2009 12:29 pm ET)
            11
          Take the time to read the transcripts of the previous court cases on this matter.

          The plaintiffs submitted tons of evidence and testimony about the fairness of the test. It was about job related knowledge.

          The defendants throughout these cases could only mumble about racial diversity and their fear of promoting qualified candidates that did not fit a racial profile.

          Those that passed the test should be promoted...while those that did not pass the test should not be promoted because...they FAILED when given an equal opportunity.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 29, 2009 2:27 pm ET)
            7  
            Please provide a link to the actual test and then people can judge for themselves. Your reputation as an analyst here is dubious to say the least.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by mikehuck1976 (July 01, 2009 2:22 pm ET)
                 
              And please provide us the transcript where the defendants "mumbled about racial diversity and their fear". You sound simply ridiculous when you spew this nonsense.
              Report Abuse
      • Author by bobklahn (June 29, 2009 12:20 pm ET)
        9  
        Wesley, is the test available for review? If not, how do you know it was fair? The city officials seemed to think it might not be. I have seen tests that were not fair, I passed one long ago and got a job based on that. Fortunately the test was so hard the company hired minorities regardless of the test results, and they did their job very well. Later they through out the test, and never suffered for that. So there was no problem with discrimination complaints. Oh, and I believe I was the only applicant, minority or white, to actually get a passing grade. But I had been trained in military tech schools, so I knew the material.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by dexteritas0071418 (June 29, 2009 12:32 pm ET)
            6
          Gee, I would hate to be a customer of a company where they hired the most qualified and experienced person for the job.

          If I'm running something, a "perfect" test is one where exactly the # of candidates that I need pass.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by loonz (June 29, 2009 3:11 pm ET)
            6  
            You think a written test proves someone is the "most qualified" in a job that's mostly physical?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by dave (June 29, 2009 3:30 pm ET)
                10
              Yes, becuase the promotion is more mental. You are now in charge of personnel.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 29, 2009 3:32 pm ET)
                8  
                Yes, becuase the promotion is more mental.
                So we're assured you wouldn't have passed.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by loonz (June 29, 2009 3:33 pm ET)
                8  
                Written tests prove who crams the bests, not who's most qualified.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by dexteritas0071418 (June 29, 2009 4:40 pm ET)
                    9
                  Cramming has been proven to hurt test scores ITLR, unless you were never studying or attending class to begin with. Nice try.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 4:44 pm ET)
                    7  
                    I am not sure that is true. The study I have seen. Admittedly only the one. Showed cramming DOES work for a test but is bad for long term retention
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by loonz (June 29, 2009 6:19 pm ET)
                    4  
                    False. I crammed all the way through college and passed all my exams. I forgot most of the information about a couple of days after the exam though.
                    Report Abuse
              • Author by loonz (June 29, 2009 3:39 pm ET)
                5  
                Someone over at the Huffington Post posted what they claimed were sample questions and here's an example:

                "What is 2/3 of 50%?"

                Now, what does this have to do with being a firefighter?
                Report Abuse
                • Author by dexteritas0071418 (June 29, 2009 4:42 pm ET)
                    7
                  "Someone" at the most popular liberal blog claimed to come up with sample questions?

                  Of course, if it's truly a question that was on the test, I think what it has to do with being a firefighter LEADER and MANAGER, is that they want to make sure you have 5th grade math skills.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 29, 2009 5:24 pm ET)
                    5 1
                    I don't think that's fifth grade math skills. I went all the way up to calculus and I don't think I've ever been asked to find a fraction of a percentage.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by loonz (June 29, 2009 6:15 pm ET)
                    4 1
                    So knowing fractions will help you fight fires or direct someone else on how to fight fires?
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by W (June 30, 2009 3:36 pm ET)
                      1 1
                      Technical skills are important: knowing about pressure, gauges, volume. Basic math is needed.

                      By the way, finding fractions of percentages is fifth grade math. Percentages are essentially fractions.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 30, 2009 6:16 pm ET)
                          1
                        By the way, finding fractions of percentages is fifth grade math. Percentages are essentially fractions.
                        I didn't say a smart 5th grader couldn't figure it out, but it is a strange question and not a type of problem you're likely to come across in the real world.
                        Report Abuse
                • Author by W (June 30, 2009 3:30 pm ET)
                  1 2
                  "'What is 2/3 of 50%?'

                  Now, what does this have to do with being a firefighter?"

                  Unfortunately, America doesn't seem to value basic mathematical skills anymore. This is fifth grade math. I would hope that any firefighter (or anybody older than 11) could solve this in his or her head. Firefighters use a variety of instruments; basic math skills (fifth grade, remember) are necessary.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 30, 2009 6:17 pm ET)
                      1
                    This is fifth grade math
                    I didn't say a smart 5th grader couldn't figure it out, but it is a strange question and not a type of problem you're likely to come across in the real world.
                    Report Abuse
          • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 3:25 pm ET)
            8  
            REALLY? So if you needed three people to dig a ditch and you gave them a test on quantum mechanics and only three of the 50 people looking for the job passed that would be perfect? Do you think those physics majors are the ones who could best DIG YOUR DITCH?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by dexteritas0071418 (June 29, 2009 4:43 pm ET)
                9
              Continue wasting your time being ridiculous and coming up with absolutely unrelated hypotheticals.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 29, 2009 5:26 pm ET)
                6  
                It was a brilliant analogy. Your inability to counter it speaks to its power. Good job, Solon.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 9:09 pm ET)
                5  
                Is that a joke? By your very definition that would be a perfect test. I showed why it wouldnt be. I know you are being defensive but dont be silly.
                Report Abuse
            • Author by dexteritas0071418 (June 29, 2009 4:44 pm ET)
                7
              I'm not some wingnut idiot, Solon, so I would appreciate if you didn't approach me like I am one. Obviously a test for ditch-diggers would involve an evaluation of ditch-digging skills, not quantum mechanics.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 29, 2009 5:26 pm ET)
                5  
                Obviously a test for ditch-diggers would involve an evaluation of ditch-digging skills, not quantum mechanics.
                Bingo! You got his point.

                Are you saying that a test couldn't be constructed for this particular job that unfairly gave white applicants an edge? Do you at least acknowledge that it's possible?
                Report Abuse
              • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 9:11 pm ET)
                5  
                I wasnt. You are being defensive.

                Yeah. That was my point. It wasnt however in any way addressed in your perfect test criteria.
                Report Abuse
        • Author by dave (June 29, 2009 12:35 pm ET)
            7
          Bob, how is a test not fair? If everyone was not getting the same test, you might have a point. I'm guessing the city officials wanted to promote a black person so they would not get hassled by the NAACP, but that's just me. If everyone took the same test, it would seem that the test was fair, some scored higher, but not what the city was looking for....and the SC agrees with me, but not with you or Sotomayer.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 29, 2009 2:30 pm ET)
            4  
            I could easily devise a test that a white person was more likely to score well purely based on their background. The reverse is also possible with questions that favored candidates that are black. Of course, we know who creates the tests so that would never happen.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by dave (June 29, 2009 2:44 pm ET)
                7
              We do? Who?
              Report Abuse
              • Author by dexteritas0071418 (June 29, 2009 3:07 pm ET)
                  9
                Whitey.

                I'm Scotch/Irish but I've never been called to a "keep the black man down" meeting...in fact, I've never been called to any "let's celebrate whitey" meetings either! I have to find the list and get my name on it; can you help me out with that Once?
                Report Abuse
                • Author by loonz (June 29, 2009 3:13 pm ET)
                  5  
                  Call the Holocaust museum shooter and find out where the meetings are.
                  Report Abuse
          • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 4:02 pm ET)
            6  
            If you were working on my assembly line and I gave a promotional test that had a bunch of questions having to do with William Shakespear and just happened to be a supporter of the local Mummers group. Several of which worked for me would THAT be fair?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by dexteritas0071418 (June 29, 2009 4:45 pm ET)
                7
              No, and if the equivalent of your ridiculous example happened in this case, my opinion would be completely different.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by dexteritas0071418 (June 29, 2009 4:46 pm ET)
                7
              No, and if the equivalent of your ridiculous example happened in this case, my opinion would be completely different.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 9:15 pm ET)
                5  
                OK. Good. Here is the thing. I am not saying it WAS what happened here. What I am saying is THAT kind of thing DID happen in the past. It is the basis for the civil rights law. Therefore when the city didnt think they could show the test measured ability to do the job. BY THEIR JUDGEMENT, they tossed it. Whether they made the right decision or not their thinking, was based on that law, it wasnt about screwing the white guys.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by mikehuck1976 (July 01, 2009 2:41 pm ET)
                     
                  Right. I think Dex gets that. Dave, on the other hand, does not.
                  Report Abuse
      • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 2:58 pm ET)
        6  
        Except the city didnt feel the test measured the knowledge needed to be a captain which is why they dumped the test.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by dexteritas0071418 (June 29, 2009 5:11 pm ET)
            6
          Which ignores the huge "we didn't want to get sued" elephant that even they admitted was a huge factor in their decision.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Brabantio (June 29, 2009 5:15 pm ET)
            7  
            I don't see the distinction. Obviously if you think the test isn't fair in its measurements, then you're opening yourself up to lawsuits when you validate the results of the test. The two things go hand-in-hand.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 9:16 pm ET)
            6  
            Ah no it doesnt. It is the REASON they were afraid they would be sued. What part of this are you finding hard to understand?
            Report Abuse
        • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 6:00 pm ET)
            6
          And the SC said the city produced NO evidence the rest was unfair, and that the city ignored evidence that it was fair. Address that Solon
          Report Abuse
          • Author by congero6189599 (June 29, 2009 6:30 pm ET)
            4  
            It was a 5-4 decision! Explain that?
            Report Abuse
          • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 9:18 pm ET)
            6  
            I dont care. I assume that close decision made the right choice. All that is saying is the city was overly cautious. That STILL isnt saying the City made the decison with any racial hostility. You are very hostile. It wont change the FACT you arent very bright.
            Report Abuse
      • Author by loonz (June 29, 2009 3:05 pm ET)
        5  
        A written test only proves who crams the best, not who's quality for the job.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by mikehuck1976 (July 01, 2009 2:20 pm ET)
           
        Wes, what does any of that have to do with the lawsuit? It seems pretty clear that you do not even know what the suit was about. You are embarrassing and exactly the kind of anti-intellectualism that drives people from the Republican party. Enjoy the wilderness.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by The_Cat (June 29, 2009 12:04 pm ET)
      5  
      This may not be perfectly topical, but, as a student of language, I would like to point something out: There is no such thing as reverse racism.

      Racism is the practice of deciding everything about a person or group of people based solely on the color of their skin, and most often with negative overtones. That means any color of skin. Any negative bias based on skin color is racist, simple as that. It is also well to remember that racism tends to be an equal opportunity form of laziness, allowing individuals to smear entire segments of society on a grand scale.

      Here endeth the language lesson...
      Report Abuse
    • Author by SMTDL (June 29, 2009 12:15 pm ET)
      9  
      There is no real objective assessment of the test in question being presented here.The conclusions of reverse racism are premature unless the test is cleared. Using a biased test has happened many times in the past..even intentionally used to further discriminate againt minorities by having loaded questions.Consequently tests have been sucessfully challenged as to relevancy and appropriateness. Also remember the test was only part of the criteria for promotion but is being touted by some as if it automatically determined who would be promoted.The weighting % for this test in the overall criteria was also a question as it was much higher than other area municipalities using a test for FF promotions.Perhaps New Haven overreacted in throwing out the test but they didn't promote anyone so the GMA statement and those of some commenters here are highly inaccurate.There was no indication even that that's what they were going to do.All that was planned was to redo the process perhaps with changes to the test and its impact in the overall promotional criteria. Reverse Racism is being accepted much more readily by many who never see racism or discrimnation claims by minorities as valid.Have these persons ever experienced discrimination personally,heard slurs against minorities by people they know at work,in their community,etc.?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by congero6189599 (June 29, 2009 12:23 pm ET)
        7  
        "...Reverse Racism is being accepted much more readily by many who never see racism or discrimnation claims by minorities as valid.Have these persons ever experienced discrimination personally,heard slurs against minorities by people they know at work,in their community,etc.?" Exactly!
        Report Abuse
      • Author by ReasonAndResolve (June 29, 2009 1:05 pm ET)
        6  
        There is no such thing as "reverse racism". Racism is racism, regardless of who the vicitm or the perpetrator is.

        This ruling has nothing to do with hiring quotas or racism. It merely states that the city of New Haven did not use a valid criteria for throwing out the test.

        The end result will likely be the same, anyway, since the initial exam can now probably be tossed out because of the amount of time that has passed - a common practice with civil service exams (and, therefore, likely to be upheld all the way to the SCOTUS).

        A Pyrrhic victory, at best.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by congero6189599 (June 29, 2009 1:17 pm ET)
          7  
          Yea, I understand the ruling and agree with you! But i also agree with SMTDL point that those who rush to find so-called "reverse discrimination" "...never see racism or discrimnation claims by minorities as valid..."
          Report Abuse
    • Author by pjm (June 29, 2009 3:21 pm ET)
      6  
      I think Sotomayor and the 3 judge panel had it right. I would be interested to hear comments from the people who are applauding the Supreme Court ruling, and complaining about "reverse discrimination" if the races of the test taking fire fighters were changed, and the Civil Service Board acted the exact same way. That is, how would these people respond if the story read:
      "Civil Service Board refuses to certify the results of pen and paper exam citing obvious racial bias. The Board noted that despite the fact that there were many highly skilled and completely qualified white candidates, not a single white candidate passed the test. The test was created and administered by an all black independent testing firm." Would these people be saying, "reverse discrimination! The test was obviously UNFAIR!" Why won't these "states rights", "local control" conservatives allow a local Civil Service Board determine their own methods of local promotion?
      I think the lower court had it right. If you see a test is not fair, you should try to fix it, not just in the interest of justice, but also in this case in the interest of good public policy. Excluding potential excellent and well qualified candidates based on a test that the board determines is inadequate or unfair would be irresponsible.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 4:09 pm ET)
      8  
      The conservatives here want to forget history and pretend the city was being racist based only on the fact those who passed the test should have been promoted. It convieniently leaves out the REASON the civil rights law in question was passed in the first place. In many cities civil rights tests were crafted so that the whites in civil service jobs would have a better chance at passing. It isnt very hard to see how this can be done. The CR law was passed to stop this practice and the criteria of the law was the test had to be related to the ability to do the job. In this instance when challenged the City didnt think they could show this test was based on the ability to do the job and the RIGHT to make that decision was upheld. Apparantly the SC decided that they city was wrong in this instance. All of that is fine. The city was seen as being too accomodating of this fear of a civil rights lawsuit. NONE of this is racism against the white firefighters. I am fine with the decision but lets stop pretending there was no reason whatsoever for ANY city to EVER question the validity of ANY test.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by dexteritas0071418 (June 29, 2009 4:53 pm ET)
          6
        Agreed. Tests can absolutely be biased toward a race, or another group with different characteristics.

        A lot of "progressives" are arguing that the test probably was biased, which again has nothing to do with the case, and is completely unfounded, given the super-small sample size of a group of firefighters in one CT town.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 29, 2009 5:29 pm ET)
          6  
          A lot of "progressives" are arguing that the test probably was biased, which again has nothing to do with the case, and is completely unfounded
          Who is? The only thing I see is people countering the claim by cons that the test was fair. Neither side can say one way or another without examining the test itself.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by wesley (June 29, 2009 5:36 pm ET)
        8
      Despite all the liberal hand-wringing and deflection the SC was clear that the city violated the law with their racial hiring decision:

      -- The city made its employment decision because of race...The city rejected the test results solely because the higher scoring candidates were white -- Supreme Court

      The city also failed to prove that the test was not valid:

      -- There is no genuine dispute that the examinations were job-related and consistent with business necessity. The city's assertions to the contrary are blatantly contradicted by the record...The city, moreover, turned a blind eye to evidence that supported the exams validity -- Supreme Court

      It was a valid employment test that the weak-kneed city of New Haven chose to ignore while being cowed by racial activist's threats...which didn't fool the Supreme Court.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by congero6189599 (June 29, 2009 6:36 pm ET)
        5  
        "...It was a valid employment test that the weak-kneed city of New Haven chose to ignore while being cowed by racial activist's threats...which didn't fool the Supreme Court." Now your just making up BS and showing your true racist character.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 8:02 pm ET)
            7
          Thats great. Wes agrees with the SC quotes part of the case, and all you can do is call him a racist. How pathetic. This shows the true nature of liberals.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 29, 2009 8:08 pm ET)
            5  
            It was a valid employment test that the weak-kneed city of New Haven chose to ignore while being cowed by racial activist's threats
            Um. This wasn't in the Supreme Court decision.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by congero6189599 (June 29, 2009 8:15 pm ET)
            5  
            You knucklehead the part I quoted was Wes opinion and was not part of the decision by the SC. Your comment is a great insight into the conservative mind or lack there of. How pathetic!
            Report Abuse
            • Author by mikehuck1976 (July 01, 2009 2:45 pm ET)
                 
              Yes, POV, please explain where you thought what congero quoted was in the Supreme Court case. And what does this say about your true nature???
              Report Abuse
      • Author by open_mind (June 29, 2009 6:54 pm ET)
        4  
        While I think the majority makes a strong argument in this case, but it was still a 5-4 decision that acknowledges there was no easy choice for the city here despite how obvious it may seem to you.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by eweston8542983 (June 29, 2009 7:10 pm ET)
        5  
        And never have a black Fire Captian show up if Weslely's house is on fire. He'll claim that he, or she obviously isn't really qualified to be a Fire Captain unless their willing to take the obviously superior New Haven Test and pass it.
        There's a word I'm avoiding. Three guesses, first two don't count.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 29, 2009 8:10 pm ET)
          4 1
          Actually, Wes would probably ask him what 2/3 of 50% was before allowing him to put out the fire.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 9:14 pm ET)
              5
            It is sad to see how racist you really are
            Report Abuse
            • Author by congero6189599 (June 29, 2009 9:29 pm ET)
              4  
              Your pathetic Obleo go back into the pointless forrest!
              Report Abuse
            • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 29, 2009 9:38 pm ET)
              5  
              You, Wes and Dave are the racists and you are fighting to allow yourself to continue that despicable behavior. It doesn't fly around here.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 9:45 pm ET)
                  7
                Have said it before, you are racist and dangerous. You want one rule for whites and another for blacks. You do not care about the white victims in this case. You are a racist plain and simple
                Report Abuse
                • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 30, 2009 12:49 am ET)
                  6  
                  Have said it before, you are racist and dangerous.
                  ...and you were wrong each time. You are doing what every cornered con does, they try to pretend their opponents are guilty of what they are really guilty of. Good luck with that. The court of MMFA posters does not look kindly on you.
                  Report Abuse
              • Author by open_mind (June 29, 2009 10:15 pm ET)
                5  
                While I do not think they are overt racists, it is pretty clear they believe the greater tragedy is when white people do not get every blessing to which they are entitled.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 11:01 pm ET)
                  5  
                  Dave is flat out racist he has made that clear. POV is rabidly conservative and brainwashed but I think he really is coming from thinking its all about fairness. Wesley, I think is wrong but making realy points and arguments I see no reason at all to lump him in with Dave, other than his weak appology for Daves clear racism
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by pointofview (June 29, 2009 11:54 pm ET)
                      5
                    LOL solon

                    I have to admit i kind of like your recap and guesses. I cant argue the rabidly conservative, I dont think i am brainwashed (but if I was, i would not know), and I honestly do think it is a fairness issue at the heart of this case.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 30, 2009 12:51 am ET)
                      4  
                      I dont think i am brainwashed (but if I was, i would not know)
                      Michael Jackson didn't think he was eccentric either.
                      Report Abuse
                  • Author by open_mind (June 30, 2009 1:23 pm ET)
                    5  
                    What Dave said was truly racist. I agree completely. I just think he is unaware/delusional/in denial of that. If you asked him if racism was wrong, he would probably agree that it is.

                    You see a lot of this in the South. I make the distinction because these people are not overt. They don't revel in being racists like some here in the South do and they may even think that working with or knowing a black person means they're not racist either.
                    Report Abuse
            • Author by eweston8542983 (June 30, 2009 10:13 am ET)
              2  
              I can hardly wait for the debate on gay civil rights to heat up. How many people will you call homophobic while your defending the status quo?
              Report Abuse
      • Author by solon (June 29, 2009 9:31 pm ET)
        5  
        There is no genuine dispute that the examinations were job-related and consistent with business necessity
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

        The city and the Supreme Court MAJORITY disagreed on this crucial point. That doesnt mean the city was weak kneed. It means they saw it differently. They also saw their obligation differently. Not as can they prove the test was biased but if they could show it measured ability to do the job. Obviously there WAS a dispute about that which is why the City tossed the test. I dont even see how the SC can simultaneously claim there was no dispute AND that the City ignored evidence the test WAS valid. The claim the city made this decision based ONLY on the fact whites scored higher is an opinion. One I have seen no evidence of. IF when challenged the city had said well obviously since whites scored higher something is wrong they would have a point. They didnt when challenged they said they couldnt show that the test measured the ability to do the job.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by pointofview (June 30, 2009 12:01 am ET)
            5
          Solon

          From my reading of the case:

          1. the SC majority believes there is no dispute, but the city does.

          2. The SC majority said the city "turned a blind eye" to evidence that the test was valid. They also said the city did not request an analysis of the test questions and results from the company that created the test.

          Those are two of the reasons I think the majority did not see a true dispute.

          The part where they claim the city made the decision based on race was stated by the SC court, but the context was agreeing with the opinion of a lower court.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by solon (June 30, 2009 12:15 am ET)
            5  
            The majority SAID there was no dispute but I dont even understand the REASONING since not only the city but the 4 judge minority decision written by Ginzberg says:

            I would hold that New Haven had ample cause to believe its selection process was flawed and not justified by business necessity.

            So clearly there IS a dispute on that issue. Just SAYING there isnt a dispute while others are clearly disputing it seems odd to me
            Report Abuse
            • Author by NiceguyEddie (June 30, 2009 11:04 am ET)
              3  
              Just SAYING there isnt a dispute while others are clearly disputing it seems odd to me

              It shoudln't. They do this ALL THE TIME. Refer to Brit Hume's analysis of the New Deal: "I think we can all conclude it was a failure." for example.

              They also do the opposiste: Say there IS a dispute when there is none. See pretty much all of their rhetoric on global warming and climate change. There are disputes, of course, but not in ANY of the areas that the climate deniers say there is.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by open_mind (June 30, 2009 1:43 pm ET)
              4  
              Not only odd. It seems dishonest. I could understand if they came out on one side of the dispute, but to claim there was not one is not supportable language.
              Report Abuse
      • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 30, 2009 3:44 pm ET)
        3  
        Despite all the liberal hand-wringing and deflection the SC was clear that the city violated the law with their racial hiring decision:
        Actually, only 55.5% said that, assuming you understood what they really said. 44.4% did not agree with that conclusion.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by mookie von zipper (June 29, 2009 9:53 pm ET)
        4
      just because the blacks were not promoted does not mean it's inaccurate to say the whites were passed over in favor of them... parsing a talking head's newsspeak can become tedious, who knows what he really meant, he's just reading a teleprompter... what gets lost in all this is new haven had an advancement system in place that gave them results they didn't like... whether or not their system can be improved doesn't hide the fact that new haven firemen, playing by the rules, paid a politically correct price...
      Report Abuse
      • Author by open_mind (June 30, 2009 1:56 pm ET)
        2  
        No. It is inaccurate. I agree that newsspeak can become tedious, but that is because good news organizations are very careful about what they say most of the time. News people should make every effort to be understood. They did a bad job choosing their words this time.
        Report Abuse

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