REPORT: Limbaugh conservatives continue 75-year-old "socialized medicine" smear
SUMMARY: As President Obama lays the groundwork for releasing his plan to reform the country's health-care system, Rush Limbaugh responds on cue with a pre-emptive attempt to undermine reform efforts with the tired smear of "socialized medicine." Just how tired? Very -- it is at least three-quarters of a century old. Media Matters found that as far back as the 1930s -- with respect to at least 16 different proposals -- conservatives have volleyed attacks on progressive efforts at health-care reform with the clichéd -- and false -- label of "socialized medicine."
Rush Limbaugh claimed during his February 27 morning radio update that "[t]he Obama budget ... funds the relentless drive toward socialized medicine" -- a statement that is neither accurate nor original. In fact, as the Urban Institute wrote in an April 2008 analysis, "socialized medicine involves government financing and direct provision of health care services," and therefore, progressive health-care reform proposals do not "fit this description." The analysis also noted: "Similar rhetoric was used to defeat national health care reform proposals in the 1990s and, with less success, to argue against the creation of Medicare in the 1960s." Indeed, a Media Matters for America analysis found that dating as far back as the 1930s -- with respect to at least 16 different reform initiatives -- conservatives have attempted to smear those proposals by calling them "socialized medicine" or a step toward that inevitable result.
These reform efforts include President Franklin Delano Roosevelt's consideration of government health insurance when crafting the 1935 Social Security bill; President Lyndon Johnson's 1965 amendment to the Social Security Act establishing Medicare; President Bill Clinton and first lady Hillary Clinton's health-care initiative in 1993 and 1994; the creation of the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) in 1997, as well as its 2007 reauthorization and 2009 expansion; Barack Obama's and Hillary Clinton's health-care proposals during the 2008 presidential campaign; health information technology provisions included in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009; and health-care provisions included in President Obama's fiscal year 2010 budget blueprint.
Conservatives will undoubtedly persist in using the rhetoric of "socialized medicine" as the Obama administration and the Democratic Congress move forward with health-care reform. As The New York Times' Mark Leibovich reported in a February 28 Week in Review piece headlined " 'Socialism!' Boo, Hiss, Repeat," conservative commentator and Conservative Political Action Conference "celebrity" Bay Buchanan said that " '[s]ocialized medicine' was a great argument for us" in defeating the Clintons' health-care reform effort. Leibovich added that Buchanan "not[ed] that the term will surely gain even more of a hold when the Obama administration unveils its own health care proposal, probably sometime this year" [emphasis added]. The knee-jerk -- and false -- accusation once again poses a decision for the media: Will they simply repeat the charges without challenge, or will they undertake a considered analysis of its underpinnings and its accuracy? Recent indications are not favorable.
History is replete with examples of health-care reform opponents reflexively lobbing the charge "socialized medicine" at any and all progressive reform proposals:
Roosevelt's consideration of government health insurance when crafting the 1935 Social Security bill
- A January 3, 1935, New York Times article (purchase required), "Doctors in Debate on Social Medicine," reported that during a "discussion on the socialization of medicine," the editor of The Journal of the American Medical Association, Dr. Morris Fishbein, "attacked the general proposal of socialization" and "ridicul[ed] the Roosevelt administration's attempts to evolve a plan of socialized medicine." Fishbein also reportedly said that the "American Medical Association [AMA] was strongly opposed to any scheme for group practice and to health insurance ... because they are un-American."
- The New York Times reported in a February 16, 1935, article (purchase required), "Doctors Meet on 'Peril' in Security Plans; Illness Insurance Moves Stir Profession," that the AMA called a "special meeting" of its house of delegates due to "what some medical men have pronounced the most critical situation in the history of American medicine, brought about by President Roosevelt's social security program, and particularly by proposals of his advisers for compulsory insurance against the costs of sickness." The Times reported that the AMA asserted that "sickness-insurance plans ... are a step toward socialized medicine."
Truman's health-care reform proposal (the Wagner-Murray-Dingell bill)
- The Harry S. Truman Library website states that "Truman's health proposals finally came to Congress in the form of a Social Security expansion bill, co-sponsored in Congress by Democratic senators Robert Wagner (N.Y.) and James Murray (Mont.), along with Representative John Dingell (D.-Mich). For this reason, the bill was known popularly as the W-M-D bill. The American Medical Association (AMA) launched a spirited attack against the bill, capitalizing on fears of Communism in the public mind. The AMA characterized the bill as 'socalized [sic] medicine', and in a forerunner to the rhetoric of the McCarthy era, called Truman White House staffers 'followers of the Moscow party line.' "
- In The Social Transformation of American Medicine, discussing Truman's health-care proposal in Senate hearings, Paul Starr writes: "Senator Murray, the committee chairman, asked that the health bill not be described as socialistic or communistic. Interrupting, Senator Robert Taft of Ohio, the senior Republican, declared, 'I considered it socialism. It is to my mind the most socialistic measure this Congress has ever had before it.' Taft suggested that compulsory health insurance, like the full employment act, came right out of the Soviet constitution." [Page 283]
- Starr further writes: "In May 1947 Senator Homer Ferguson accused the [Truman] administration of illicitly spending millions 'in behalf of a nationwide program of socialized medicine.' A House subcommittee investigating government propaganda for health insurance concluded that 'known Communists and fellow travelers within Federal agencies are at work diligently with Federal funds in furtherance of the Moscow party line.' " [Page 284]
- Starr also writes that after Truman won re-election in 1948, "the AMA thought armageddon had come. It assessed each of its members an additional $25 just to resist health insurance and hired [public relations firm] Whitaker and Baxter to mount a public relations campaign that cost $1.5 million in 1949, at that time the most expensive lobbying effort in American history. ... 'Would socialized medicine lead to socialization of other phases of American life?' asked one pamphlet, and it answered, 'Lenin thought so. He declared: "Socialized medicine is the keystone to the arch of the Socialist state." ' (The Library of Congress could not locate this quotation in Lenin's writings.) So successful was the campaign in linking health insurance with socialism that even people who supported Truman's plan identified it as 'socialized medicine,' despite the administration's insistence it was not." [Page 284-285]
- An April 14, 1950, Washington Post article (purchase required), "Dewey Views Truman Plans As Dangerous," reported that New York Gov. Thomas E. Dewey, a two-time Republican presidential nominee, said that the Truman administration's "compulsory health insurance plan" was " 'socialized medicine.' "
Kennedy's health-care reform proposal (the Anderson-King bill)
- In Social Security and Its Enemies: The Case for America's Most Efficient Insurance Program, Max J. Skidmore wrote that an AMA recording by Ronald Reagan, "Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine," was part of the organization's "brilliant effort to encourage opponents of the Anderson-King Bill to write to senators and representatives urging that they vote against the proposal." [Page 61] At the end of the recording, Reagan urged listeners to write to their congressional representative because otherwise, "we will awake to find that we have socialism." [Page 165]
- In a February 12, 1961, article (purchase required), "Fight Looms Over Medical Plan," about President John F. Kennedy's call for Congress "to set up a system of health insurance for the aged tied to Social Security," The New York Times reported, "One of the principal opposition arguments is that a Governmental system of health insurance opens the way for a form of socialized medicine."
- A May 13, 1962, New York Times article (purchase required), "Fight Over New Aged Plan Grows Hotter," reported that in opposing the Anderson-King bill, the AMA "had been fighting back with cries of 'socialized medicine.' " The report also stated: "Stepping up its own campaign, the A.M.A. has issued a twelve-page booklet entitled 'The Case Against Socialized Medicine.' "
Johnson's 1965 amendment to the Social Security Act establishing Medicare
- In a January 17, 1966 article (purchase required), "Insurers Ask What's Next in Medicare," The New York Times reported: "This discontent in the wake of the enactment of the Federal medicare program is not over the loss of at least part of the health-insurance business involving people over the age of 64. Rather, the insurance sellers are distressed at the thought that medicare has brought the nation a giant step closer to socialized medicine."
- Reagan delivered an October 27, 1964, speech, "A Time for Choosing," supporting Republican presidential candidate Barry Goldwater against Johnson, the incumbent. In the speech, Reagan said, "Will you resist the temptation to get a government handout for your community? Realize that the doctor's fight against socialized medicine is your fight. We can't socialize the doctors without socializing the patients. Recognize that government invasion of public power is eventually an assault upon your own business." (The Greatest Speeches of Ronald Reagan; Page 3)
- An August 17, 1992, analysis in the St. Petersburg Times by Ellen Debenport, "Bush resists action, distrusts change," noted that George H.W. Bush "opposed Medicare in 1964 as 'socialized medicine.' "
- In a July 11, 1965, article on the passage of Medicare, "Now Medicare" (purchase required), The New York Times reported that "Medicare bills have been bouncing around Capitol Hill for years, but have run into strong opposition. The American Medical Association has lobbied against a Federal medical program on the ground it would be a step toward socialized medicine."
Clinton's 1992 campaign health-care proposal
- In a September 28, 1992, editorial (retrieved from the Nexis database), The Orange County Register wrote that then-presidential candidate Bill Clinton's health-care proposal "resembles long-standing plans by congressional Democrats to impose a version of socialized medicine in America."
- An August 5, 1992, New York Times article, "THE 1992 CAMPAIGN: Issues -- Health Care; G.O.P. Tries to Seize a Democratic Issue," reported that President George H.W. Bush "tried to paint as socialistic" Clinton's health-care proposals. The Times continued: "Accusing Mr. Clinton of advocating socialized medicine -- although he does not -- Kevin Moley, Deputy Secretary of Health and Human Services, called elements of the Clinton plan 'oxymoronic, with the accent on the 'moronic.' "
- In an August 6, 1992, article, "Health care: Plenty of politics but few answers" (from Nexis), USA Today reported that "Bush maintains that Clinton is pushing socialized medicine." The article continued: "Clinton ... has a plan that isn't really, as critics charge, 'back door' national health insurance."
- In an October 18, 1992, article, "THE 1992 CAMPAIGN: ISSUES -- Health Care; Bush and Clinton Aren't Saying It, But Health-Care Taxes Are Likely," The New York Times reported that "Mr. Clinton has modified his proposal to deflect Republican charges that he favors socialized medicine" and that "Republicans pummeled him as an advocate of ... socialized medicine."
The Clintons' 1993 health-care initiative
- On the December 16, 1993, edition (from Nexis) of Limbaugh's television show, Rush Limbaugh, which ran from 1992-1996, Limbaugh stated, "I don't have time to beat around the bush. The health-care plan as proposed by Mrs. Clinton is socialism. There's no soft way to peddle it. There is not other way to describe it."
- On the December 27, 1993, edition (from Nexis) of Rush Limbaugh, Limbaugh said of President Clinton's health-care plan, "People have to oppose this philosophically." He added, "You can't let the agenda be set by the administration because socialized medicine is not the solution."
- On the April 4, 1994, edition (from Nexis) of Rush Limbaugh, Limbaugh said of Clinton's plan, "this health-care plan is all about the destruction of the creation of wealth in America and the socialization of this country, and it won't work -- never has anywhere else -- and we're going to go to the mat here to see to it that they don't succeed."
- In a September 29, 1993, Washington Post column, "Socialized Medicine In America" (from Nexis), Robert J. Samuelson asserted, "We have arrived at socialized medicine in America. I do not report this as either a good or bad event but simply as something that has happened with hardly anyone realizing it. This is the first result -- and probably the most important -- of the national health care debate launched last week by President Clinton. Our politics and economy will never again be the same."
- An October 21, 2000, New York Times article, "For Mrs. Clinton, Health Plan Left Lessons and Questions," reported: "When Mrs. Clinton visited Congress in February 1993, Newt Gingrich, the Georgia Republican who was then minority whip, articulated the concerns that swamped the president's plan 19 months later. Mr. Gingrich said then that Mrs. Clinton's proposal looked like 'washed-over old-time bureaucratic liberalism, or centralized bureaucratic socialism.' "
- In a November 27, 1992, article (purchase required), "House Democrats Dust Off Long-Stymied Agendas," the Los Angeles Times reported that "[Rep. Carlos J.] Moorhead [(R-CA)] said he opposes Clinton's health care reform proposal as 'socialized medicine.' "
- A January 23, 1994, Washington Times article, "Dole calls for revival of Bentsen's health care plan" (from Nexis), reported that "former Housing Secretary Jack Kemp, in a well-received closing address to the RNC [Republican National Committee] yesterday, called Mr. Clinton's" health-care plan a " 'socialized medicine' proposal."
- In a February 20, 1994, article, "Old Republican Fissures Feel Strain as Health Care Debate Grows" (from Nexis), The Washington Post reported that Sen. Phil Gramm (R-TX) said of Clinton's health-care plan: "If we can't offer a viable alternative to socialized medicine, then we don't have any excuse for existence."
- In an October 20, 1994, article, "THE 1994 CAMPAIGN: PENNSYLVANIA SENATOR Struggle for the Senate; In Pennsylvania, Round 2 on Healt [sic]," The New York Times reported that then-Rep. Rick Santorum (R) "describes President Clinton's health proposal as 'socialized medicine' that the country repudiated."
Creation of SCHIP in 1997
- In a February 18, 1997, column for The Star-Ledger of Newark, New Jersey, "GOP mustn't swallow bad medicine" (from Nexis), Tony Snow wrote that Republicans "must decide soon where they stand on the issue of socialized medicine," explaining that "President Clinton threw down the gauntlet in his State of the Union address, when he proposed guaranteeing health insurance for at least half of the 10 million American children who have none."
- In a July 23, 1997, column, "NEA Convention Delegates Gather to Gloat," Eagle Forum founder Phyllis Schlafly wrote that the National Education Association (NEA) was "confident that Congress will pass the Kennedy-Hatch KidCare bill, a first step toward the single-payer socialized medicine system that the NEA has endorsed for years."
- An August 26, 1997, Atlanta Journal-Constitution article, "THE TOBACCO BATTLE: Conservative man in middle" (from Nexis), noted that Sens. Ted Kennedy (D-MA) and Orrin Hatch (R-UT) "sponsored an increase in the cigarette tax by 43 cents a pack to fund health insurance for about 5 million poor children." The article quoted Bradley Keena, "spokesman for the archconservative activist group the Free Congress Foundation," saying of Kennedy: "He wants socialized medicine, and he's working with Hatch on a first step. This is not the old Hatch."
Gore's 2000 campaign health-care plan
- Appearing on the August 28, 2000, edition of CNN's Crossfire, then-Rep. J.D. Hayworth (R-AZ) said: "And if you like socialized medicine, you will love this government bureaucracy under [then-Vice President and Democratic presidential nominee] Al Gore that will actually cost seniors who get $500 a year in prescription drugs right now -- it will end up costing seniors more money and take away control from those seniors."
- On the September 25, 2000, edition (from Nexis) of Fox News' Hannity & Colmes, co-host Sean Hannity said: "And the other issue is Gore, $4.6 trillion -- the single largest expansion of government in American history, from universal preschool, now, to prescriptions to health care -- it is Socialism 101."
- Right-wing pundit Ann Coulter attacked Gore on the October 3, 2000, edition (from Nexis) of CNBC's Rivera Live, saying: "Yeah, but the point is what Gore says, 'No, we can't have an across-the-board tax cut, but we can have an attract -- across-the-board socialist health care plan.' "
2001 Patients Bill of Rights
- Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX) wrote in an August 1, 2001, Health Care News article, "Bill of Rights ... or Federal Takeover of Medicine?": "Without question, the true goal of some in Congress is to create a system of socialized medicine. It's politically expedient to slap a 'patients' rights' label on legislation that simply leads us closer to a complete government takeover of medicine."
- In an August 2, 2001, speech on the House floor, Paul urged his colleagues to "reject the phony Patients' Bill of Rights. ... We don't have to continue down the path of socialized medical care, especially in America where free markets have provided so much for so many."
Kerry's 2004 campaign health-care plan
- On the September 9, 2004, edition of MSNBC's Scarborough Country, host Joe Scarborough claimed that Sen. John Kerry (MA), the Democratic presidential nominee at the time, "wants to socialize medicine," adding: "John Kerry ain't no bargain. You add up all that he wants to do, with socializing medicine -- he's talking about universal health care, with adding 40,000 new troops. It's a lot bigger deficits" (from Nexis).
- On September 15, 2004, then-Sen. Gordon Smith (R-OR) released a statement attacking the "Kerry-Edwards health care plan," saying: "While they have been touting their move toward socialized medicine, Kerry and [then-Sen. John] Edwards [(D-NC), Kerry's running mate] have opposed serious reforms and improvements to the health care system throughout their careers."
MD's 2005 proposal requiring Wal-Mart to pay increased health benefits
- As Media Matters noted, Limbaugh stated on the May 20, 2005, edition of The Rush Limbaugh Show that proposed legislation in Maryland, which would have required Wal-Mart to choose between increasing health benefits for employees or paying more into the state's Medicaid program, is "a vestige of fascism." Limbaugh added, "[T]hey're legislating socialism at the Maryland legislature."
2007 SCHIP reauthorization
- During the October 16, 2007, broadcast of his radio show, discussing the debate over the reauthorization of SCHIP, Limbaugh stated that the media "have done everything they can to push this whole notion of socialized medicine, to rip the president as being heartless and cold and cruel to children. And yet -- see, this is why you gotta celebrate the new media, folks, and people like me."
- During a speech given for WPHT-AM Philadelphia on October 11, 2007, Limbaugh said of SCHIP, "It's an expansion. And it's a stealth mechanism to put the tentacles of socialized medicine even deeper into society."
- During the August 3, 2007, broadcast of The Rush Limbaugh Show, Limbaugh stated that "the SCHIP program ... is a stealth maneuver by the Democrats to take us further down the road to nationalized, socialized medicine, which will be an abject failure." He added, "It will not be free. You may not be paying for it yourself, but you'll also suffer in the kind of coverage that you get and treatment that you get."
- An April 1, 2007, New York Times article, "Expanded Health Program for Children Causes Clash," reported: " 'The Children's Health Insurance Program has given Democrats a wide-open door for socialized medicine,' [Rep. Jack] Kingston [R-GA] said in an interview. But he added, 'The door was left open by Republicans, who were in the majority when we passed the original legislation in 1997.' "
- An August 2, 2007, New York Times article, "House Passes Children's Health Plan 225-204," reported that "Representative Pete Sessions, Republican of Texas, said the bill embodied the Democrats' 'vision for the future: socialized medicine and Washington-run health care.' "
- A September 26, 2007, Washington Post article, "House Passes Children's Health Bill; Despite Strong Republican Support, Threatened Veto Will Probably Stand," reported that "Republicans attacked the bill on multiple fronts, saying it would move the nation toward 'socialized medicine.' "
- A September 28, 2007, New York Times article, "Senate Passes Children's Health Plan," noted that "Republican opponents of the bill, like Senators Judd Gregg of New Hampshire and John Cornyn of Texas, said it would be a big step toward socialized medicine."
- An October 3, 2007, Associated Press article, "Bush vetoes child health insurance plan," reported that "Bush argued that the congressional plan would be a move toward socialized medicine by expanding the program to higher-income families."
2008 campaign health-care proposals by Obama and Clinton
- On the January 25, 2008, edition of his morning radio update, Limbaugh cited a study showing that, in Limbaugh's words, "women will not get tested [for breast cancer] if they have to pay for it. He added, "Every liberal on the campaign trail has a plan to deliver free, socialized medicine, but no country on earth, folks, can possibly pay for every test for everybody without going bankrupt."
- Discussing a Rocky Mountain News editorial about a single-payer plan under consideration in Colorado, Limbaugh stated on his radio show of September 17, 2007 -- the day then-presidential candidate Hillary Clinton announced her health-care proposal -- "I'm getting to the bottom line, is that you have the single payer proponents. Tying this to Mrs. Clinton, she's a single payer advocate. The government's going to be the single payer. It's going to be socialized medicine, national health care."
- A September 16, 2007, ABCNews.com article quoted Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney attacking Clinton's then-unannounced health-care policy at a campaign event in Iowa, saying: "The last thing we need is Hillarycare," and, "The last thing we need is socialized medicine."
- On the December 19, 2007, edition of CNN's The Situation Room, host Wolf Blitzer interviewed Republican presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani and said, "Quick couple of questions, and you can give me your honest answers, as you always do." Blitzer then asked Giuliani: "Has Hillary Clinton been a good senator for New York state?" After stating, "Not from my point of view," Giuliani falsely claimed that Clinton "want[s] to move toward mandated government medicine, socialized medicine."
- In a September 24, 2007, USA Today article, reporter Fredreka Schouten quoted Romney's charge that Clinton's health-care proposal is "a 'socialized medical plan.' "
- On September 18, 2007, USA Today's Richard Wolf reported: "Republicans criticized Clinton's plan as heavy-handed. Rudy Giuliani's campaign called it the 'Clinton-Moore plan' after filmmaker Michael Moore, whose film Sicko lambastes the U.S. health care system and lauds government-run programs in other countries. Mitt Romney called it 'a European-style socialized medicine plan.' "
- During the August 23, 2008, edition of Fox News' Cavuto on Business, guest Jonathan Hoenig, a regular panelist on Fox News' Cashin' In and managing member of Capitalistpig Asset Management LLC, falsely asserted that Obama and then-running mate Joe Biden "have made it very clear that they support socialized health care."
- In an October 6, 2008, National Review Online column headlined "Take This and Run: Ten things the McCain campaign needs to do to win," Lisa Schiffren described Obama's health-care proposal as "state health care," writing: "Ask why Barack Obama wants to make us all wards of the state, with state health care. Is this a good moment to embrace 20th Century Socialism Lite, even if we are facing a year or two of belt tightening? Shouldn't the future be freer, with less state interference in our lives?"
- A May 3, 2008, New York Times article, "Parsing McCain on the Democrats' Health Plans," noted that Sen. John McCain, then running for president, has repeatedly "inaccurately described the Democrats' health-care proposals, using language that evokes the specter of socialized medicine."
2009 SCHIP expansion
- A February 4 New York Times article, "Obama Signs Children's Health Insurance Bill," reported that "Representative Steve King, Republican of Iowa, denounced the bill as 'a foundation stone for socialized medicine.' "
- A January 30 Washington Times article, "Children's health bill clears Senate," reported that Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC) said, "Democrats are making it clear that they intend to use our economic crisis to rush through their longtime liberal goals without public scrutiny or debate. ... This will increase burdens on taxpayers and take a significant step toward socialized medicine."
Health information technology provisions in 2009 economic recovery package
- On the February 10 edition of Fox News' America's Newsroom, co-host Megyn Kelly, speaking to Sen. Arlen Specter (R-PA), cited Betsy McCaughey's Bloomberg commentary in claiming that the health information technology language in Obama's economic recovery package "sounds dangerously like socialized medicine."
- Radio host Martha Zoller, appearing on the February 15 edition of CNN Newsroom, claimed that her "biggest concern about socialized health care is a lot of those things are in the stimulus bill. There are a whole bunch of things in the stimulus bill relating to health care and it is about telling, especially older folks, that it's not going to be cost-effective to continue to treat them and Democrats have been scaring older folks for 15 years about Republicans taking away what they have."
- In a February 25 American Spectator column, "Repeal Health Care Fascism," Peter Ferrara, who served in the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations, wrote that the stimulus bill funds "a bureaucratic structure for the government to begin rationing the health care of the American people." Ferrara counseled "Republicans and conservatives" to "sponsor a new bill of their own proposing to repeal the health care rationing provisions of the supposed stimulus bill. They can then lead a national, populist, grassroots movement to force Congress to pass the bill, and President Obama to sign it, educating the public along way about the intractable problems of socialized medicine."
Obama's 2010 budget blueprint
- During the February 27 edition of his morning radio update, Limbaugh mentioned the carbon cap-and-trade and tax provisions included in Obama's budget outline and stated, "The Obama budget also funds the relentless drive toward socialized medicine. And all that is just the beginning."
- In a February 26 statement "[r]eacting to President Obama's budget blueprint," Rep. Glenn Thompson (R-PA) "vow[ed] to fight against socialized medicine," stating further: "On healthcare, I agree with the President that we need to get costs under control. I look forward to working with him by utilizing my 28 years of experience working with over 10,000 patients dealing with life altering conditions to accomplish that feat. I can also say without hesitation, that the quality of healthcare in this county is second to none -- and sacrificing quality to achieve these necessary reforms is not acceptable. A single payer, government run healthcare system is the worst possible way to achieve this goal."
- Rep. John Fleming (R-LA) released a statement on February 26 claiming that Obama's budget "will move us even further down the path to universal health care. We are treading dangerously close to bureaucratic intervention in the exam room and I will not support any measure that leads to socialized medicine."
- In a February 26 statement, Rep. Paul Broun (R-GA) said of Obama's budget: "One such troubling provision is a tax increase to pay for the $635 billion included in the budget for health care 'reserve funds.' Health care reform is desperately needed in America, but I'm concerned that $635 billion will be a down payment on socialized medicine, causing the impersonal rationing of health care and destroying the doctor-patient relationship."
From the December 16, 1993, edition of Limbaugh's television show, Rush Limbaugh (retrieved from the Nexis news database):
LIMBAUGH: All right. Let me just tell you something very quickly. I don't have time to beat around the bush. The health-care plan as proposed by Mrs. Clinton is socialism. There's no soft way to peddle it. There is not other way to describe it. The only way it'll "work" as drawn is if socialism -- now I use "work" in quotes because socialism doesn't work -- but the only chance this plan has is if it is under the -- the aegis of socialism. So make no mistake about it. I mean, it's taking one seventh of the American economy and transferring it to government control. That is socialism.
From the December 27, 1993, edition of Rush Limbaugh (from Nexis):
LIMBAUGH: People have to oppose this philosophically. You have to say, I don't want any part of this.' You can't let the agenda be set by the administration because socialized medicine is not the solution. The private sector -- the free market can do this better and more efficiently with more freedom and more choice for all of you. And there are plenty of great alternatives out there, and I think people are beginning to note and -- and -- and -- and become aware of this because of the polling data showing so little support for this as presented.
From the April 4, 1994, edition of Rush Limbaugh (from Nexis):
LIMBAUGH: The White House -- ah, here are the details, ladies and -- see, this is why you watch this show. This is buried in The Washington Post. We found it. Now the world will know. "The White House this week cut back the coverage for drug and alcohol treatment in its health-care plan to hold down costs." And th-- and -- and -- and critics then charged that this could undermine one of the principle goals of President Clinton's anti-drug strategy. And if you read the story further, they're also going to reduce health-care funding for the mentally ill.
Now, why do we show you this? We show you this because they'll say anything in the world to hook you. They'll paint the best picture of love, devotion, compassion and care -- why, it's a candy store, America. Go in and it's all free. Then when it comes down to the nutcracking time, it all seems to vanish and go away, and we're going to chronicle all of these discrepancies, from the promises to the reality, because this health-care plan is all about the destruction of the creation of wealth in America and the socialization of this country, and it won't work -- never has anywhere else -- and we're going to go to the mat here to see to it that they don't succeed.
From the May 20, 2005, broadcast of Premiere Radio Networks' The Rush Limbaugh Show:
LIMBAUGH: They [the Maryland General Assembly] are legislating socialism. This is the government -- in this case the state government -- telling a private business how it must run its affairs. Now, some might even call that a vestige of fascism. Some might say you're getting very close to fascism here when the government starts telling everybody in business -- at an increasing rate -- how they have to run their business, allocate funds, and so forth. And it's almost extortion to boot, because if Wal-Mart doesn't do what the legislature says -- then the legislature must -- then Wal-Mart must pay the legislature. So it's -- they're legislating socialism at the Maryland legislature.
From the September 17, 2007, broadcast (subscription required) of The Rush Limbaugh Show:
LIMBAUGH: But the Rocky Mountain News says: "We've spelled out some of our objections to the single-payer plan in an earlier editorial, and we haven't changed our minds. But let's assume that this system indeed guaranteed medical coverage for every resident. And that its 15-member governing board, which will have 'constitutional powers to contain costs'..." Do you realize, constitutional powers to contain costs? "Let's assume that this single-payer plan actually did keep overall medical spending in check. Such fiscal discipline would come with an unacceptable price: dramatic compromises in the breadth and quality of care. Say the plan initially reduced overall medical expenses by the 11 percent Lewin suggests, by wringing out administrative inefficiencies and purchasing prescription drugs in bulk. After that, however, new costs pile up in a hurry. For one thing, single payer would immediately increase the number of Coloradans with guaranteed coverage by 19 percent." Are you losing me on this, Mr. Snerdley? You lost me the other day. You thought that I was reading a story written by Melinda Gates, and it wasn't.
What you are missing here? Well, I'm getting to the bottom line, is that you have the single payer proponents. Tying this to Mrs. Clinton, she's a single payer advocate. The government's going to be the single payer. It's going to be socialized medicine, national health care in Colorado, they're doing this, they're proposing four different ballot initiatives, and the people on the side of single payer out there obviously have a leg up because they're out there with all these stats saying, "Hey, it would have cost 4.7 less this year if we'd had had single payer." What this editorial is trying to say is, "Nope, it's going to add costs right off the bat," because, in the first place, bureaucracies never become efficient; they're never going to get rid of administrative costs; they're never going to reduce them. That's not the purpose of bureaucracies. It's to increase those things.
From the October 16, 2007, broadcast (subscription required) of The Rush Limbaugh Show:
LIMBAUGH: As it is at present currently structured, the Graeme family [sic] was covered. The Graeme family is out there on television [makes whining noises], "[unintelligible] President Bush [unintelligible]." No. President Bush is not trying to deny coverage to people like the Graemes. And this other woman -- that little kid that they're -- the Democrats are now parading out -- also covered by the current structure of the SCHIPS [sic] program.
But I just -- I think this is fabulous news out here that -- the drive-bys have done everything they can to push this whole notion of socialized medicine, to rip the president as being heartless and cold and cruel to children. And yet -- see, this is why you gotta celebrate the new media, folks, and people like me, because, 20 years ago, this would have happened, and there wouldn't have been any opposition to it whatsoever, and you would not know the truth, and you would believe what the media is telling you -- well, some of you would. I mean, there's always been a sizable contingent of people out there that didn't trust the drive-by media.
From an October 11, 2007, "Rush to Excellence Speech for WPHT-AM Philadelphia" (subscription required):
LIMBAUGH: It's a matter of simple responsibility. But we're getting to the point of mob rule. You get to the point where 55 or 60 percent of the American people think that other people -- government, whoever -- should be buying their health care, it's essentially mob rule. And that's, you know, that's -- unless, if the elected representatives -- well, we know Mrs. Clinton wants to do this. SCHIP is her plan. It's an expansion. And it's a stealth mechanism to put the tentacles of socialized medicine even deeper into society. Under the expansion of SCHIP -- by the way, President Bush voted to expand it for 4 billion to include poor kids only. The Senate version, the House version, the Mrs. Clinton version, defines a child as anybody 25 years or younger. I'm not making this up.
From the August 3, 2007, broadcast (subscription required) of The Rush Limbaugh Show:
LIMBAUGH: You have to establish priorities. If health care is the most important thing to you, then you gotta do -- regard -- wherever you are now, you've got to do with less. There are -- somewhere else. You're asking your neighbors to subsidize your insurance for your -- for health care. This program that you're talking about, the SCHIP program -- that's SCHIP with a P -- is a stealth maneuver by the Democrats to take us further down the road to nationalized, socialized medicine, which will be an abject failure. It will not be free. You may not be paying for it yourself, but you'll also suffer in the kind of coverage that you get and treatment that you get.
From the January 25, 2008, edition (subscription required) of "Rush's Morning Update":
LIMBAUGH: According to a report published in the New England Journal of Medicine, researchers at Brown and Harvard universities found that women will not get tested if they have to pay for it. You heard right: Breast cancer screening rates are dramatically lower when women have to contribute a co-payment.
We're not talking a lot of money here, folks. I mean, most insurance plans ask for a $20 co-pay. But even when the payment is as little as $12, there are significant drops in the number who get screened. So the researchers advocate the elimination of all co-payments. Of course.
Every liberal on the campaign trail has a plan to deliver free, socialized medicine, but no country on earth, folks, can possibly pay for every test for everybody without going bankrupt. Yet, as this study demonstrates, the entitlement mentality is so pervasive regarding health care that even 12 measly dollars is too high a price to save your life for people who are already insured. If it's not free, it's not worth it?
From the February 9 broadcast of The Rush Limbaugh Show:
LIMBAUGH: Everybody assumes that the Obama administration's health plan -- the health reform, the gigantic national socialization of medicine bill -- is going to be a standalone to come down the pike, and everybody's especially thinking now it's been delayed since the Puffster [Tom Daschle] pulled himself out of consideration at Health and Human Services for not paying taxes. That is not true. Betsy McCaughey has read the relevant portions of the stimulus bill. She's written about it in a commentary at Bloomberg.com, which we will link to at RushLimbaugh.com later this afternoon.
From the February 27 edition (subscription required) of "Rush's Morning Update":
LIMBAUGH: American companies that Democrats simply define as polluters will be forced into a cap-and-trade program, adding almost $1 trillion in taxes to their bottom lines. Small-business owners and people Democrats call "wealthy" will be slammed with new taxes as well. The Obama budget also funds the relentless drive toward socialized medicine. And all that is just the beginning. The way to look at this budget is not with an economic lens, it is with a philosophical one. Liberals want to make America -- remake it in their image. And this is how you will pay for it.








When I was in school thirty years ago I had an elderly, right wing professor who constantly ranted about socialism in America. One of his examples...the U.S. Postal Service. The Socilaism boogey-man has been around for a long time in right wing circles.
IRONY, YOU ARE RIGHT AND THEY ARE BRINGING IT BACK WITH FULL FORCE
I somewhat remember reading about this Post office jobs being socialistis. they had a lot of vets returning from WW2 and korea that the US Government gave jobs to. My mailman was a PBY pilot in the Aleutians. Quite vascinating. It is crazy how these people twist the story around to fit their own agenda. there is no socialism in this country. We still get to throw the bums out by voting and there is no call for Marshall Law to stop it. I lived in a socialist country for a long time, trust me, it ain't here. We were close to replacing the Constitution recently. declaring a war is a dangerous thing not only to our perceived enemies but also tlo ourselves.
Yes they harang about the same old, same old things. I lived in Canada and had my second heart surgery there. Altogether I have had three heart surgeries in US and one in Canda. In Canda, I owed the hospital 31 dollars because I was hospitalized for 31 days. For the other three surgeries, I have paid and paid to get out of debt, having lived in three different states. After 4 surgeries and being an RN, I feel qualified to evaluate the quality of care in each of these places. I found the Canadian surgeons and the hospital staff to be first class as they were in Hawaii, Texas and Arizonaq where I had the other surgeries. The big difference was the thousands and thousands of dollars I owed in those not done in Canada. In fact, I have spent most of my adult life paying for heart surgeries except for Canada and Arizona where I had both private insurance and medicare. All these really stupid statements about reduced quality if medical care is paid for by government insurance is just a big pack of misinformation.
they are actually, defacto, calling for dictatorship and they themselves being part of the ruling party. Little do they know it is a intellectual death sentence.
"Little do they know it is a intellectual death sentence."
They don't care about the intellectual aspects...as long as it's (or they THINK it's) financially profitable. More fool them, but they'll have to learn the hard way. Which they just MIGHT do, if - as Obama says - it gets worse before it gets better.
I take leave, though, to doubt they're learning capacity.
WOLF, There is NOTHING INTELLECTUAL about these FAR RUGHT WING MORONS.
I think that most of these right wingnut talking heads know exactly what they're saying; they just don't care. They want to be on top, they want the ability to silence all critics, and they want more of everything they enjoy. Sinclair was right; when fascism comes to America it will come wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.
People need to be reminded that under Obama Socialism they still get to wear their flag pins. ;>)
It's true that they will get to keep their flag pins....but all firearms will be confiscated by President Obama himself.
;)
...so he can give them to the ACORN militia. ;>)
LOL.....That sounds believable enough. Just to be fair, I'll go ahead and spread the word about the coming ACORN Militia to give our wingnut friends fair warning.
Oh, here we go, ONE MORE TIME, with Obama wanting to take your guns away from you. Can't you people come up with anything new? THE FEAR MONGERS ARE AT IT, AGAIN! I like the flag pin thing better!
I wonder if Limbaugh would exhibit the same enthusiasm if Obama proposed decreasing taxes on businesses and the rich and to fund some form of socialized medicine by increasing taxes on middle and lower income families.
I'm thinking the answer is no based on what I just read:
Rep. Zach Wamp (Rep-Tenn) told MSNBC's Tamron Hall that Obama's proposed healthcare plans would be a "fast march to socialism", and that he believes that healthcare is not a right because many choose not to have insurance.
"This is almost class warfare in order for him to be able to say everyone now has health care. Listen, healthcare is a privilege," said Wamp.
Limbaugh says health care is a luxury...like a beach house. And he's the freakin' leader of the Republican Party so I'm sure no Republican elected official would dare disagree with him...except if they were prepared to immediately grovel on their knees in apology to Limbaugh.
He never claimed to be head of the party, and no one has anointed him as such.
Steele pretty much ceded his throne.
abd he annointed himself at the CPAC meeting
well it seems everyone else has cause otherwise why ar eso many politicians apologizing for their remarks.
He did, a week ago. From Limbaugh's march 2nd radio broadcast:
RUSH: I certainly couldn't say I am proud of the Republican Party, as I am leading the Republican Party.
"By the same token, I'm not in charge of the Republican Party, and I don't want to be. I would be embarrassed to say that I'm in charge of the Republican Party in the sad-sack state that it's in. If I were chairman of the Republican Party, given the state that it's in, I would quit. I might get out the hari-kari knife because I would have presided over a failure that is embarrassing to the Republicans and conservatives who have supported it and invested in it all these years. I certainly couldn't say I am proud of the Republican Party, as I am leading the Republican Party. Right now the Republican Party needs to be led, and it will be. The next Republican president is going to be the head of the party"
The sentence in question was hypothetical in nature, as demonstrated by context.
I don't know, I got that he's not proud of the fact that he's leading, that he wishes someone else were, but still, he's stepping into the void and appears to be saying that until someone better comes along that he's the one. What's your take?
"By the same token, I'm not in charge of the Republican Party, and I don't want to be"
That's pretty clear. He seems to be saying overall that nobody will be in charge until the next Republican president.
If his entire speech is inconsistent, I wouldn't be surprised (I didn't re-read it before posting). It just struck me when I read that quote that it didn't reflect the meaning of that particular section.
Nice....totally out of context...but nice. Typicall liberal lie!!
I'm glad you liked it, I used your posts as a format for that one.
Yes, he has. He announced that he was in a radio broadcast.
Many who do not have insurance do not have it because getting it woiuld mean not eating or haveing a roof over there heads. If this is choosing not to have insurance then I am to the right of rush.
I just met one of those who really did choose to not buy insurance. My father was in an ICU and the person in the adjoining room was bragging that they were getting the exact same level of care that any one else was, yet never paid for insurance. I have no idea how that person will pay for the 10's of thousands of dollars that they signed for. I suppose we all will.
So the rightwing keeps repeating the same 75 year old excuses...
and they think they are the party of the future?
Good God these people are nuckin futz!
im sure it could be either way.
No, they meant really clueless con cretins, little fella
i was trying to be nice. to banker up there.
Typical Media Matters smoke and mirrors. Socialized medicine is not really socialized medicine. Did you see Geithner saying they would consider taking people who get health care from their employers?
A duck is a duck.
Typical factually-challenged, leatherhelmet lunacy. The goal is to make health care more accessible and affordable to the citizens of the USA, little fella, not to make the world safe for insurance companies. Make a note of it.
One of you right wingers on here tell me how it is bad if everyone in this country would be able to receive healthcare, or had insurance to receive healthcare? Why is this bad? Why are you so against our country providing for its people? Do you see healthcare as a luxury or something that we should all just have?
All this ranting and raving about how it's socialism, and yet, they can't say why, or how this would be a bad thing for our country. Look at what kind of impact it would have on our economy almost immediately. Companies would no longer have to foot the bill, completely, for their employees health care, and therefore, would take away one of the biggest things that major corporations, and smaller companies complain about hitting their bottom line. This would, or might make the Big 3 viable again, almost overnight if we had a single payer healthcare system like France, or England, and of course, if you wanted to keep purchasing private insurance, you could do that as well.
What's the problem conservatives? Why is this such a bug in your hair?
I don't have a problem with reforming our system to make it better. Clearly the system isn't working very well and is getting very expensive.
However, health care is not a right. It's a wonderful goal to try to have healthcare for all and I support that, but it is not a right.
Healthcare is a commodity.
health care is a commodity ? You go tell that to the soldier who just lost his leg in combat ..........................I dare you .................
health care is not a right
At least it is in civilized countries where they don't bow down to the altar of greed.
Healthcare is a commodity.
You might as well have said that health care is a profit center. Profits over health/lives? You'd rather have people DIE so that Ginormous HMO Inc. can make a profit?
Can't any rightie understand that if you take away the profit motive from health care EVERYONE benefits?
And I'm really a centrist not a right winger but I answered your question anyway.
I appreciate it Bruce, and I do find you to be one of the better folks on here to debate with, because, you don't go down the troll path, but offer up good ideas, and concise points, that I may, or may not agree with. I will disagree with you that I believe that healthcare should be a right in this country. But first, yes, let's make it a goal, but I think everyone should have the right to be cared for by the still most powerful nation in the world. Healthcare is only a commodity, because we have allowed it to become so.
I always find it funny when someone opposes universal healthcare in the US, on the basis that they've heard horror stories about something that happened in Canada, or overseas, but at the same time, the HMO system that some people have to use in the US also has major issues, like, someone gets hurt real bad, say, car accident, and is brought to the local ER, and then the HMO won't pay for it, because they didn't call in to see if it was OK if they went to the ER. I mean, that's just something I made up as an example, but I have read stories about things like that happened, or HMOs deciding that they don't want to pay for someone's cancer treatments, because they have a low chance of survival. You know what I mean?
I think healthcare for all should be a right. And I hope that one day, it is.
Thanks Magmolialover. We have have a fundamental disagreement on what a "right" is.
I don't believe healthcare can ever be a "right" because it requires someone else to do something. If healthcare is deemed to be a "right", then we will have to assure an adequate supply of healthcare professionals to cover that need. I read somewhere that American rights impose no obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone.
This is something to seriously consider before declaring healthcare to be a "right". As I said, I support the goal to provide healthcare for all the citizens, not because it is a "right" but because it is the right thing to do.
Look like I an a self appointed third leg here. requiruing someone to do something in this case means our universities graduating more doctors, which by itself is an increase in intellectual property, something we never have enough of. Also means our vocational schools will also graduate more assistants, some of whom may actually go on to four year colleges. i don't see the negative here as some more radical trolls seem to think.
but there lies the problem.
just because it is the right thing to do doesn't mean it would be done.
i would think ensuring that all citizens have access to afordable healthcare would fall under the constitution as part of promoting the general welfare as stated in the preamble. government run or not. but thats my feelings on it.
"If healthcare is deemed to be a "right", then we will have to assure an adequate supply of healthcare professionals to cover that need."
I'm not sure that's true. I think it's implicit that you have a right to treatment within the parameters of the system, and the important thing is that there's as much effort as possible to accomodate everyone. They can't just make more doctors overnight, so nobody can really be held responsible for any "violation" in that regard. It's the same sort of thing as the emergency room. They may have to treat you, but if they're completely swamped with more important injuries and incidents, there's not much anyone can do about you going to the back of the line.
"Within the parameters of the system" would not be an inalienable right in my view.
I think you are agreeing with me.
Not necessarily. How about the right to a speedy trial? If the system is horribly backed up, then it's not possible to give everyone a "speedy" trial. It's based on the status of the system. Is that right "inalienable" or not?
I don't think that dynamic is any basis for saying that it can't be considered to be a "right". There's no way to complain about it being violated simply because it takes longer, as long as everyone is making a good faith effort to provide as much care to everyone as possible. Therefore you don't have to worry about such a situation being an inherent violation that negates the concept of it as a right.
I agree that the right to a speedy trial is not an inalienable right. The right to healthcare would be on par with your example, but would not be on par with the inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
I'm talking about guaranteed rights as opposed to rights that we will try to accomodate to the best of our ability.
But then it's still a "right" either way, isn't it? I thought you were saying that you couldn't consider it a "right" because it was different in nature from others.
"I read somewhere that American rights impose no obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone...This is something to seriously consider before declaring healthcare to be a "right"."
I should have said "unalienable right" in my first post.
This article essentially captures my thoughts on the subject, in more detail than I provided earlier. In the article the aurthor references a distinction between liberty rights and welfare rights.
I was referring to liberty rights when I said that healthcare is not a right.
http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth--14-Is_There_Right_Health_Care.aspx
>>I was referring to liberty rights when I said that healthcare is not a right.
That point may be somewhat well articulated, but it represents the viewpoint of libeterians, which most people are not. So I don't accept their arguments. Specifically, the article argues that by making health care a right, it increases the cost. (That is just one argument, to be accurate.) But factually, that is not so. Europeans pay 1/2 as Americans, and get much better health care.
Also the article states "The rights of liberty are paramount because individuals are ends in themselves." That's an assumption, and as an argument it has many flaws. For example, according to this philosophy, an individual has the right to acquire as much wealth as possible, even if it means exploitation, and the exploited have less freedom. Libetarians never accept this premise.
Saying that since most people are not libertarians means you don't accept their arguments strikes me as illogical.
Arguments should be accepted or rejected on the merits, not on how many people agree with the argument. Sometimes, most people are wrong.
>>Saying that since most people are not libertarians means you don't accept their arguments strikes me as illogical.
That's true, but I hardly think there is enough space and time here to debate the merits of libetarianism. At any rate, I pointed out one concrete flaw in the argument, and one philosophical one.
Health Care is only a right guaranteed by the USA to the citizens of Iraq.
Even if health care is not a right it is part of the general welfare and that is required by the Constitution. It is even so important that provide for the general welfare is part of the Preamble of the Constitution.
Sure, ya are, brucie. Sure, ya are. And I'm the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world.
Cut the crap. Just 'cause you're not as off the rails as leatherhelmet don't make you a moderate. You're nothin' of the sort.
I think that Bruce is very much a moderate. I may have read it wrong, but he doesn't think healthcare would be, or could be a right granted to citizens of this country, but on the same token, I do believe he thinks that everyone should have healthcare.
Bruce, am I right, or wrong?
I think healthcare for everyone is a worthy and noble goal.
Peoples perceptions of where others fall on the political spectrum are directly related to where they themselves are located.
Sure ya are. HA between a repug or a democrat you repug on most of it.
MAGNOLIA, WELL SAID. And I believe that health care should be a right.
Unfortunately, as it is now, our health care system is greatly more costly with bad outcomes in treatment simply becaus the non-insured people cannot see a physician when they need to and thus symptoms get worse. finally in many cases, symptoms get very serious and they then go to an emergency room where hospitals legally cannot turn them away because of lack of insurance. Caring for that patient then becomes mush more expensive, often they need hospitalization. As an RN, I have seen this scenario happens over and over again. But all that aside, just on moral grounds, how sad that our advanced nation has millions of residents not having health insurance nor any plan for them to get care early in their disease process. That problem alone increases out health care costs and robs the people of time working and by worry they have when they get ill.
Actually, last time I got rushed to the hospital with an ambulance trip, they let me choose what hospital I wanted to go to. There were 3 choices. I'm just saying, sometimes, it does happen that way.
Everything else you wrote, yeah, pretty much agree with you there.
Does anyone have any dollar amount as to how much Americans collectively pay in healthcare insurance premiums each year? Before I got laid off my job recently, my health insurance premiums skyrocketed, and deductables were implemented for each of my family members, which amounted to more annually than the insurance would even begin to pay.
So basically, for the past two years, I have paid enormous premiums, never met the deductables for ANY of my family members, and had to pay ALL my family's healthcare expenses out of pocket. I got one of those Health Savings Accounts, which was somewhat helpful in pre-paying me my own money, but of course you lose what you don't spend each year, which is almost inevitably some amount.
What seems to be left out of the debate is the fact that insurance company's have already imposed socialized medicine at a cost much higher than the actual cost of receiving health care.
That's my thought, anyway. The insurance companies are the Middle Man, raping us all.
1. I am sick to death of MMFA falling right into lockstep with the idiots who think Socialism is in and of itself evil- calling it a "smear" to call something "Socialism" does just that. Why not just say "Limbaugh, etc. continue to call Obama's health care "Socialism" and leave it at that?
2. Free Public Education was not a "right" when this country was founded. It is now an unquestioned Right. So what is wrong with arguing that for this generation, Health Care became a Right? Perhaps this is the generation where Gay Marriage becomes a Right, as well.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with adding to the list of Rights. The BEST generations of Americans have always done just that.
First, the tired old figure of 46 million that do not have insurance is a misleading statement. There are 300 million of us here. 25% of that liberal lie is made up of illegal immigrants. (don't qualify) People that make enough money but go without it. People that qualify but simply do not sign up. On and on. A miniscule percentage of this number actually needs this.
What does these folks that do not have insurance have to do with ME? Why am I responsible for them? The Constitution says nothing about me having to be responsible for you pal...
The very reason that we are where we are right now is directly because of government on SO many levels. So much of our system is NOT private to start with. So much of what the insurance companies can or cannot do is mandated by government. States mandate who can do business there. That is why I personally only have a couple of choices. Why can I not take the money that the employer spends on me and purchase a catastrophic plan? The government will not allow that. There is no competition either. If you had to pay each time that you went to a doctor, you would not go so often. You do not have a RIGHT to go to a doctor for every little sniffle. No one calls their doctor and ask what they are going to charge and shop around!
Obama tries to make this sound capitalistic. You can trade within the system, you buy your insurance within the system, etc.
If the government is so great in this instance, why do we continuously hear horror stories of our veterans? If the government treated those appropriately that gave up their health to serve their country, I would not be SO discouraged. You get Aspirin vs. Plavix when you need a blood thinner for instance. Ask the veterans how well socialized medicine has worked for them. Walk into a VA hospital.
To make it all work for EVERYONE, the government will take the appropriate medicines/treatments away from those that have them just to provide a service to everyone. They are going to decide what the insurance company covers and cannot cover. You get an insurance card. It crinkles like an insurance card, looks and feels like one, but it is not the same that you may have now.
Don't be fooled. For if this is allowed to go forward Americans will pay a GREAT price.
So your entire argument is based on the assumption that somehow medicine and treatments are going to be taken away from those paying for insurance.
If that's the case, why do you make the point that VA hospitals use Aspirin instead of Plavix? Wouldn't your argument have more validity if something was already being taken from those with private insurance in order to give it to those under government care? It seems sort of odd to make the dual arguments that socialized medicine is so terrible, and yet others will have to sacrifice in order to maintain some respectable level of quality for it.
I'd like to know what you have to base the assumption on in any case. Usually when I hear stories about what the big bad government is going to do, I become skeptical.
I sit here and just scratch my head at these responses...Incorrect. They're taking my tax dollars without my approval and building up more poor quality/poorly ran beaurocracy. They will choose what is appropriate for our treatment even if it is substandard or behind the times 20 years. It's cheaper so it MUST be better? Dad raised me saying that you get what you pay for. You obviously have higher expectations of free. You think the governments free is a better "free"?
If the government is so good at medicine don't you agree that they should clean up their first McDonalds (the VA hospitals/government healthcare) before they open any others? This has BEEN in place. I have not seen any infrastructure in the spendulus for those folks that I am so thankful for.
I have no idea how you think any of that was relevant to my post. I didn't say cheaper was better, except obviously it's better than being uninsured completely.
I'm not sure Liebuster is running on all cylinders.
I think that either a) he/she is jerking our chains or b) he/she has a serious cognitive disorder.
(if there is any doubt, review his/her posts)
especially given the fact that i have schooled liebuster constantly and liebuster keeps coming back for more
"They are taking my tax dollars without my approval..."
We live in a Democratic Republic. Your personal approval is not required before the feds take your taxes and spend them. If you don't like the amount of money taken from your paycheck or the way it's spent, that's fine- you have the right to complain and the right to organize for changes in the next election. But stop pretending that there's something inherently "wrong" or "evil" about the government spending money on THIS instead of THAT, because there simply isn't. Spending money on health care is just as valid as spending money on Education, if that is what this generation of Americans think is a proper use of federal money.
Your talking points aren't doing anything to change the course of America's destiny which is, thank God, to become a more equitable, Socialistic nation. And about damned time, too.
"We live in a Democratic Republic."
Actually we live in a constitutional republic. If you google "democratic republic", you get hits like the Democratic Republic of the Congo. More telling is Wikipedia's explanation of "republic" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic ) where "democratic republic" is defined as "...part of the official titles of many Marxist states during the Cold War..."
Dear Liebuster, You just proved my point without busting any lie at all.. Non-insured people's emerbency medical care is paid for by you and me and taxes. Hospitals have to take ill people, with or without insurance. Those uninsured folks usually have very advanced stages of their illness and their treatment then becomes far more expensive. If you do not believe me, take a visit to any metropolitan emergency room. Entering medical treatment through emergency care increases the price of medical care. The simplest treatable medical problems can end up in very complicated problems that must then be treated with lengthy, expensive hospitalization and believe me, you pay for that right now in hospital area assessments and tax money going to these hospitals.
"None of this are constitutional rights."
As someone else pointed out, neither is education.
"It is a far more rewarding feeling to accomplish something myself rather than have another man take care of it."
That's great, but when many employers don't provide adequate health care or any at all, then there's a lot of people who can't afford it. And it's not like all of those people can just find jobs that do. Even if everyone works as hard as they possibly can, then some people will still be marginalized by the drive for profits by both employers and insurance companies. It's not like there's some meritocracy where your character and hard work are taken into consideration, and it's possible that everyone could get health care if they weren't so lazy and selfish.
"That is why ol' Rush can call you gutless with a straight face and it not be totally out of context."
That doesn't even make sense.
It DOES make perfect sense. Whatever excuse you make to fail, well, it is STILL an excuse to fail. There is a huge difference between those that sit in a bad situation and call themself a victim and those that get away from the definition of insanity and do something else. If we all just attach our buttocks to the ground like a jackass and wait long enough and moan loud enough, someone else will do something. Negative. That is not acceptable to me and many others.
The fire that you may sense in my passion is quite simple. I was raised that I am responsible for my choices. When it all boils down I have to take care of myself. No one here fell out of the sky from Mars. This is the land of plenty. If you want anything bad enough, you CAN get it. Moochers don't have much respect for themself to act like buzzards and take from others. I would not put my kids in public schools period. You blame employers when you could work somewhere else. On and on...that's pathetic. Let's all just start over and live off of the land huh? Let's see how far the moochers would make it and let's see how far go-getters like me would make it? I don't need you to feed my kids if i were fired tomorrow. I'd do something else.
Do you have any ability to comprehend at all?
Read very carefully. There is a finite supply of jobs that cover for medical benefits. There is a finite supply of jobs that pay well enough that people can afford to get insurance all on their own.
Therefore, not everyone can go get a better job or get insurance. Again, if everyone worked to the very best of their abilities, gave it 100% over the span of their entire lives, you would still have people without insurance. Do you understand that concept?
"I would not put my kids in public schools period."
That's not the point. You said there was no Constitutional right. That doesn't mean that education should be optional, since that would be horrible for our efforts to compete in the global economy. The same sort of argument can be made for health care. Constitutional rights have nothing to do with anything.
liebuster.....its that time again i guess. CLASS IN SESSION.
ok now we know that you are somewhere around your 60's or 70's perhaps.
first. im 26 years old.
second.i don't feel entitled to anything. i had to work my rear off during high school, and college to graduate from both places and in my current job now i constantly work as hard as i can to earn money, i even work a second job just to make ends meat and i had to move back in with my parents to try and save some money.
third. i never ask for help from anyone for anything. in fact im often offering to help people whenever possible.
fourth. rush has no right to call anyone gutless especially after eviscerating durg addicts when he admitted to being one himself.
SCHOOLED YET AGAIN.
class dismissed.
Nope. I was adopted from a dirt poor abusive home. Wood stove for heat, cinder block house, a cycle of ignorance that would have passed to my children. I know how welfare impacts families so detrimentally. It teaches folks over time to be dependent on that. Makes it acceptable. Sucks the pride out of you. Teaches you that being a victim and laying down is cool.
I was adopted into an educated, lower middle class home at 9 years old. If not for my parents I would have ended up the same way. Picking tobacco, in prison, on welfare, poor. I KNOW FOR A FACT what the impact would be to families and how this would turn America in a different direction if they took that welfare away or made the process tougher. Yes, you are asking for help. You are making excuses for you as a victim or for others. The role of government is to protect you, not wipe your rear end if you get too lazy or even to provide T.P.
Finally, hurt your back or get into a situation with migraines where you have to take painkillers. I know several strong people that never smoked a joint that became addicted to them. (Funny enough my father was the drug and alcohol supervisor for the county health dept. So again, I know what it is like.) Again, victims...how can you throw rocks at this guy when you are victims yourselves?
never said that not once. that the government should wipe my rear. again taking my comments out of their context. and im making excuses for no one.
here is my theory on the government's role would be in my life. if i had lost everything i could. had no way and was homeless with nothing to go on, i would hope that they would extend a limited helping hand just enough to get me on my feet and id take it from there.
much like my current situation. i had to give up living on my own while working two jobs, to move back in with my parents. now i fully expect at some point, as soon as i possibly can, to move back out so i will not prove a burden on them.
and as for pain pill addicition. im only pointing out rush's hypocracy in that he condems drug abusers. im not playing the victim for myself or anyone.
I've been there. My father said, "You make your bed you lie in it son". This was after the military. At the time, I felt hurt/betrayed by my dad. I look back and thank God that Dad did what he did. i grew up. I was stronger than before that occurrence. I am forever thankful for his tough love. I lost it all. Was not my fault, but it happened. (That's another story)
Government was not needed. Hunger motivated me to make things change. I am not superhuman at all. Just a regular guy that had my back against the wall. It sucked like Hades at first, but when i came out of that ugly time, I felt like a man.
my point is simply that its there....if its absolutly needed. im not saying to automatically take it, but i feel better knowing that if its needed and if i would absolutly need it i would take, even though it would be painful to do so because i have alot of pride.here is a better analogy, if your going to go bungee jumping or even skydiving...wouldn't you feel better knowing that if somethign goes wrong, there is something there that would save you if all else fails.
"I was adopted from a dirt poor abusive home...Wood stove for heat, cinder block house..."
What is it with you Horatio Alger wannabees? Is there a website you go to to purchase these instant Abraham Lincoln Log Cabin bios, or what?
Did it ever occur to you that you've just admitted that you were RESCUED by someone, and that's how you avoided a life of desperation and poverty? So all the people growing up in abusive homes who WEREN'T adopted are just losers and it's too damned bad for them, or what?
I'm not a drug addict- so is it ok for me to throw rocks at Limbaugh? Because you strongly suggest that it is. Thanks!
Obama Press Secretary Gibbs as of yesterday 3-6-09 Thursday, publicly declared that the Obama Administration is REJECTING OUTRIGHT ANY SINGLE PAYER NATIONAL HEALTHCARE PLAN.
Obama has CAVED to the insurance lobby. HMO mandates are coming. Obama has proven himself REGRESSIVE, not PROGRESSIVE. Unlike FDR Obama, who has been promoted in the corporate media as the "anti-Bush" is looking more like the anti-Roosevelt. Whereas Roosevelt ran as a conservative and became an uber-progressive, Obama is doing the reverse. His policies are an extension of Bush's.
Obama never promised a single payer health care system. More people would be covered maybe eve 100% if we do 2 things. first make all insurance companies have to be nonprofit. This is because the laws governing for profit companies and the idea of insurance are polar oppoisites. For profit companies are required to maximize profit while insurance is to pay out money. This is why you have to fight for so many claims. Second is to get rid of preexisting conditions being a reson to deny coverage or to be not covered.
Hear is a partial list of things the right does not like that are part of the general welfare and thus needed per the Constitution. Healthcare, Education, taking care of the Eldery, and child care. The right will call any of these socialism and thus make them seem evil when opposing them makes the right evil.
You took general welfare and got all of these nouns out of those two words? Our forefathers were not a bunch of wusses. They just were not. I am a direct descendant of Andrew Jackson. First, he was not a good man at all.
To insinuate that Washington, Adams, etc. meant this with these words is ludicrous. They despised government spending. Learn your history libs!!! Geez.
Here's a reading assignment for you. Talk about a self made man. Try The Autobiography of Malcolm X.
Now consider the physically and mentally handicapped. If you think that they should rely on charity, think again. That's was tried in Dicken's time and didn't go so well.
Let's not forget that right-wingers are highly delusional and not overly bright. They think everyone's heart stops when you say "socialized," but it just ain't so. I just checked my pulse to be sure.
Their belief that everyone feels the same as they do about everything is just one of the things that make the Right crazy.
"a cycle of ignorance that would have passed to my children"
LieBuster, you might want to revisit this quote and look at it a second time...or a third.
I'd have to guess that not many people would like you, Mikehuck, so you look for them here for camaraderie. Let's talk facts here and you can go take advantage of our new Teen section here at Mediamatters.com. hehe You might have a chance in our new Yo Obama(mama) contest.
Since there are supposedly 46 million of you without healthcare(I will break this argument to pieces for all of you more thoroughly soon), there's 303,824,640 citizens in America. Why would those 46 million overrule 257,824,640? That makes no sense to me even with that extremely liberalized figure 25% of those 46 million are illegals. So Bush and the democrats felt those votes are worth handing out our sweat and tears to. Look at THAT! BUSH and the democrats holding hands singing kum bah yah!
Handing welfare and health care to anyone that wants to see a doctor with sniffles is a higher liability than the benefit gained by the handouts. I AM apathetic to those with special conditions. Cancer research is crucial, downs syndrome, etc. Just as the wastulus, we could use a more succinct and targeted effort to help those that CANNOT HELP THEMSELVES as health care is concerned. Not throw this ridiculous wad of money at the issues like a bucket of paint. As Obama said and didn't do, "a scapel instead of a bat". The OTHER 40,000,000 can man up and get on the time clock. Bag groceries. Take the "jobs that no American WANTS bad enough to do" back from illegals and get off of the welfare cheese. No jobs, no illegals. Legislate punishment for employers that are caught with illegals on their payroll and make that price HIGH. No jobs, no illegals. Did the ten+ million turn tail and go back home during this time of 8% unemployment? Does not look like it to me! They are busy making cash, while the millions sit around and watch "The Price is Right" and "The Maury Povich Show". Many of these folks cannot speak our language and they manage to function here. You are telling me with the exception of those that are handicapped (one fifth of the liberal 46 million Americans without health insurance) or the fifth of ALL Americans that have some type of disability that MANY of these folks could not help themselves?
The unending cycle of ignorance and the definition of insanity that Obama, the democrats and the rest of America are allowing to clean out the cupboard. This is ridiculous.