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A debate worth reading

November 02, 2009 2:18 pm ET by Simon Maloy

Sometimes it's healthy to step back from the blaring din of political news coverage, separate oneself from the gritty minutiae of polling data and CBO scores, and look at issues of broader significance and deeper meaning, if only to obtain a fleeting dose of perspective before plunging back into the cable news fray. In that spirit, I wandered over to Dan Gilgoff's God & Country blog at USNews.com, which is featuring a written debate on Darwin, evolution, and Creationism between National Center for Science Education executive director Eugenie Scott and New Zealand-born minister Ray Comfort. Comfort, as I noted last month, is celebrating the 150th anniversary of On the Origin of Species by publishing his own edition of the landmark scientific work with a 50-page Creationist screed tacked on as an introduction, and this re-release of Darwin is the very the reason Scott and Comfort are locking horns.

The initial posts from Comfort and Scott should immediately clue you in to the motivations each person brought to the debate. Comfort's opening statement is little more than a pitch for his books and television program. He carries on about commenters on Amazon.com and atheists, and lobs insults at Richard Dawkins with the likely goal of getting Dawkins to respond. Only once does he attempt to address issues of scientific weight, and the result is comically absurd. Comfort writes that "believers in evolution" cite as evidence "small bumps on whale bones (proving it once had legs), or experiments with bacteria, or conjecture that modern turkeys were once dinosaurs." His response, in its entirety, is a sneering "Sure." To finish things off, he mocks Mormons and "believers in evolution" as being equally foolish and gullible.

Scott's riposte, on the other hand, is a thoughtful dissection of Comfort's publicity stunt. She observes that Comfort, in addition to appending his introduction to Origin, excised "no fewer than four crucial chapters" that contain "some of Darwin's strongest evidence for evolution." Responding to Comfort's mockery of "small bumps on whale bones" and "conjecture that modern turkeys were once dinosaurs," Scott points out that there "are splendid fossils of dinosaurs that have feathers and of whales that have legs-and even feet." (See: Georgiacetus vogtlensis and Beipiaosaurus inexpectus.) I particularly enjoyed Scott's closing line, in which she expressed her "faith that college students are sharp enough to realize that Comfort's take on Darwin and evolution is simply bananas" - a sly reference to Comfort's well-known and widely mocked theory that bananas prove the existence of God.

There's an argument to be made that the media should not grant publicity-seeking clowns like Ray Comfort legitimacy they haven't earned by allowing them a seat at the table, and the best support for that argument is the sort of nonsense that Comfort brought to bear in his opening statement for USNews.com. But if a crank like Comfort is going to get his 15 minutes, then it's helpful to pair him with someone like Scott, whose measured grasp of scientific reality makes Comfort's cynicism and self-promotion seem all the more crass.

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    • Author by tbone (November 02, 2009 3:41 pm ET)
      3 1
      There's an argument to be made that the media should not grant publicity-seeking clowns like Ray Comfort legitimacy they haven't earned by allowing them a seat at the table

      Ultimately no different than covering the pope who's "seat at the table" has been "earned" only by the number of followers of the sky-fairy myth that is "Catholicim" [insert preferred religion to demonize here]
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      • Author by tbone (November 02, 2009 3:42 pm ET)
        1  
        whose
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      • Author by tbone (November 02, 2009 3:43 pm ET)
           
        Catholicism. G*dda#n it.
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      • Author by achrispage6992 (November 02, 2009 5:04 pm ET)
        1 2
        Can you prove that God does not exist? Can you prove that the idea of the Christian God was created to conveniently account for man's existence?

        The least you could do is prove your sarcastic meanderings or take the high road and respect the beliefs of others. If you don't believe in God so be it, but don't trivialize and ridicule the beliefs of others as if they are actually childish fantasies.
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        • Author by Doug-Life (November 02, 2009 5:26 pm ET)
            1
          Somepeople are just filled with hate.
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          • Author by tbone (November 02, 2009 5:35 pm ET)
            1  
            Please identify the hate in my post other than my tongue-in-cheek swearing at myself.
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          • Author by wookie (November 03, 2009 11:50 am ET)
               
            Ah, don't put yourself down. Actually, atheists can't really condemn people the way believers can. Faith tends to require force because it is harder to convince people you are right. No one will start a jihad to defend evolution.
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        • Author by tbone (November 02, 2009 5:44 pm ET)
          1  
          Of course I can't prove God does not exist but this is where religionists get it wrong. The burden of proof is not on the nonbeliever, it is on the believer.

          I was not being sarcastic. I was stating that Comfort has as much legitimacy to believe what he believes as does the pope. I was in fact defending his "legitimacy". Is he more of "publicity seeking clown" than voodoo practioners, tarot card readers, "psychic" phenomenon investigators, or any other Ghostbuster/Ghosthunter? If you'd like to recognize practioners and progenitors of certain faiths, including the leity, priests and ministers as "good" or "blessed", I would say some are, some aren't.

          I begrudge no one their faith. Any and all are free to believe whatever they want to believe. I will however continue to state that I find the belief in the existence of a supernatural, paternal being who watches over us as pure fantasy. That's just my freedom of speech pitted against yours.
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          • Author by achrispage6992 (November 03, 2009 8:23 am ET)
               
            O.K. you first wrote "the pope who's "seat at the table" has been "earned" only by the number of followers of the sky-fairy myth that is "Catholicim" [insert preferred religion to demonize here]"

            It would stand to reason that if you assert that those who believe in God are "followers of the sky-fairy myth" then you somehow have some type of proof that such a belief is a myth.

            But then you write:"Of course I can't prove God does not exist but this is where religionists get it wrong. The burden of proof is not on the nonbeliever, it is on the believer."

            So, let me get this straight, you assert that the belief in God is akin to belief in a sky-fairy which you assert is nohting but a myth, and then you indicate that the burden of proof is not on you to prove your assertion but rather on the person who has a belief in God. I'm sorry T-bone, but that argument is illogical and utter nonsense. Please tell me why the burden is not on you since you are the one to proclaim it a myth?

            You wrote "I begrudge no one their faith. Any and all are free to believe whatever they want to believe. I will however continue to state that I find the belief in the existence of a supernatural, paternal being who watches over us as pure fantasy. That's just my freedom of speech pitted against yours."

            But yet you have previously encouraged the demonization of believers, due to your belief, that such beliefs are nothing but childish beliefs in "sky-fairies." Quite a contradiction, don't you think? Look, as I previously stated, I respect your atheistic beliefs. I'm certainly not going to preach to you, try to convert or "save" you, or tell you that you are going to suffer eternal damnation for your beliefs. In fact, you religious preferences or lack thereof, make no difference to me. But, for you to frame your discontent with believers utilzing sarcasm (which you in fact did do) is sophomoric at best. Just my freedom of speech pitted against yours.

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            • Author by snappahead (November 03, 2009 9:03 am ET)
                 
              Instead of attacking T-Bones writing style (calling it sophmoric), why don't you instead prove his assertion wrong? I am eagerly awaiting your proof that God does in fact, exist...
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            • Author by tbone (November 03, 2009 10:18 am ET)
                 
              So, let me get this straight, you assert that the belief in God is akin to belief in a sky-fairy which you assert is nohting but a myth, and then you indicate that the burden of proof is not on you to prove your assertion but rather on the person who has a belief in God.

              Precisely. I am not the one asking people to believe in the unprovable. Insert "pink unicorns" in place of "God" and "pink unicornists" in place of "believers" in your arguments - that may help you with your logical fallacy.

              you have previously encouraged the demonization of believers.
              Tongue-in-cheek "demonization" since I specifically named Catholicism. It could have been any multi- or singular-deity based religion.

              I respect your atheistic beliefs

              I don't even like the term "atheism". It mischaracterizes "non-belief" as a "belief" system. I don't believe in Casper the Friendly Ghost, does that make me an "aspiritist"?

              If you find my writing sarcastic and sophomoric, I'm OK with that. I too seek no converts but if it so happens that I inspire a deist to examine their faith, and come to the conclusion that it is without merit as I did, I consider that enlightment.

              My point again was, Comfort has as much "basis" for his belief system as any other religious figure. For MMFA to paint him as a clown is based only on his meager number of adherents.
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              • Author by neon desert (November 03, 2009 11:10 am ET)
                   
                I don't want to butt into a fascinating debate, but much like an effective moderator, I feel it's my duty need to keep the discussion on track. And until you can prove the non-existence of God, tbone, you must concede that the "pope's seat at the table" is just as valid as as that of Tom Biscardi.
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    • Author by bilbo_dies (November 02, 2009 5:06 pm ET)
         
      Ah right wing discouse mixed with an actual debate based on facts.

      Talk about polar oppisites.


      Apologies to those on the right who actually understand science.
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    • Author by Meremark (November 02, 2009 6:11 pm ET)
        1
      -

      "college students are sharp enough to realize ... simply bananas" {bananas ridiculous, such as the linked 'white paper' below)

      "grasp of scientific reality makes ... cynicism and self-promotion seem all the more crass" ('am not', as written by conservative hired hack)

      Same sensibilities (of college science) devastate Exhibit B, in which 'conservative' stupidly disputes the emerging science-wise convergence toward a consensus that 'liberals are smarter than conservatives.'

      -



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    • Author by jkfisk (November 02, 2009 11:28 pm ET)
         
      The famous fossil whale, Georgiacetus vogtlensis, is on permanent display in Georgia. Its present fame rests on the theory-driven interpretation that it is a transition from land animals to whales. A reconstruction of the whale is what museum visitors actually see . The display fossil has legs, even though the real fossil was found without any appendages such as flippers or legs. Evolutionary theory dictates the whale should have legs, and so they have been added! I have no problem with this reconstruction, because a card in the nearby display case states that the fossil was found without legs. My problem is with the theory-driven deception in the teacher's guide accompanying a temporary exhibit on evolution. It is titled:

      Teacher's Exhibit Companion to: Evolution
      February 12 - May 8, 2005
      This booklet includes information about the basics of
      teaching evolution and lesson
      plans to help you introduce the
      concept to your students.

      On page 20 of this booklet for teachers is a chapter titled: Fossil Evidence for Evolution, which explains transitional fossils. At the bottom of this page is a drawing of the reconstructed skeleton and next to it the caption:"This skeleton of Georgiacetus vogtlensis, on display . . ., shows an intermediary whale fossil that is 42 million years old. Notice that Georgiacetus has legs like land-dwelling mammals."

      But the legs are not on the original fossil, and the teacher's guide does not call attention to this important fact.
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    • Author by RickK (November 02, 2009 11:36 pm ET)
         
      "Can you prove that God does not exist?"

      No. Nor can I prove there are no leprechauns or fairies or brownies. Nor does anyone need to.

      What is sad is after 3000+ years of searching, there's not one scrap of actual evidence that any supernatural entities exist at all.

      There are people who believe the world is controlled by giant lizard-people who take human form. We laugh at people that believe this.

      We should also laugh at people who can watch a tsunami wash 150,000 innocent children into the sea, and can still believe the world is controlled by a loving, all-powerful god.

      Ray Comfort and his followers demonstrate what ignorance lies at the end of the path of blind faith.
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      • Author by tbone (November 03, 2009 11:36 am ET)
           
        The strongest argument against evolution is the number of people who still pray.
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